Islam and Logic

[Hani1991]

Hello everybody,

I just want to clarify some points about Islam that some of the media has been trying to taint with many false facts.
Here are some facts that you may wonder about:

1- Islam encourages and orders Muslims to read and learn and discover everything around them in the universe. The first word that was sent to the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, was "Read!". There are also many verses in the Qur'an that order Muslims to search around them and try to discover what's in human bodies, Nature and the whole universe. Learning science is part of Islam. And God will judge Muslims who don't learn if they can.
2- Islam does NOT force non-Muslims to convert to Islam. Islam also orders Muslims NOT to do so. Muslims mustn't force non-Muslims to convert to Islam. "Let there be no compulsion in religion" [The Holy Qur'an 002:256]. The Qur'an also motivates Muslims to be kind with non-Muslims.
3- The Islamic Law, i.e. the law of Muslim countries whose official religion is Islam, and that rule by the rules stated by Islam, guarantees the right of every single human to live a free, just, and peaceful life under the protection of the Muslim country. If the country is a Muslim one, that does not mean that any non-Muslim person will be discriminated agiants. You know Muslims have ruled the Arab region for decades. The Arab countries, nowadays, contain multiple ethnic and religious groups. Had Muslims killed or discriminated against non-Muslims before, non-Muslims would have either immigrate or disappeared. Nevertheless, until this moment, there are many Christians, Jews, atheists, and other religious groups in large numbers in the Arab countries. Those religious groups have been there for centuries. They lived before, during, and after the Islamic period. I'm saying "after" because this Muslim country that existed before doesn't exist anymore, even though most of the leaders and people are Muslims.
4- Islam orders Muslims to believe in all the Prophets, including Jesus Christ and Moses, and to believe in the Holy Books, including the Torah and the Holy Bible, even though Islam tells people that those Books have been distorted. Islam orders Muslims to believe in the original Holy Books. Islam names those who believe in the Holy Books the people of the Book. Muslims are told not to hurt people who do not hurt them.
There are stories about the Prophet Muhammad that say that when Muslims used to go to fight their enemies, although their enemies weren't Muslims, the Prophet Muhammad used to order Muslim fighters not to kill any woman, child, old man, or those who were worshipping (even though they weren't Muslims), and Muhammad ordered them not to cut any tree, or kill sheep, and other orders. Civilians were taken into consideration during battles.

Sadly, many Muslims nowadays do not follow their religion exactly as they should, but this doesn't mean that they are evil and terrorists. You may wonder why they don't follow their religion. Actually, most of them were maltreated by those in authority. This ignorance that spread in the Arab world is not by accident! Poverty and oppression were the main reasons why those people became ignorant. I don't want to get in the history and remind people of the civilisation of Muslims in the past. Even though ignorance and poverty prevented people from learning, teaching and leading the real civilisation, a new glimpse of hope appears to be not so far.

Unfortunately, there are so many other false facts spread around, and many people accept them since they see them in the media unknowing that many statements in the media are false! You may not believe that, but I really experience it. Nowadays, if you notice, there are, very obviously, contrary statements in the news in many parts of the world.

Anyways, truth will prevail. I hope we all try to discover everything by ourselves. For me, I don't buy many things in the media whether in the east or in the west. Those media were created for political purposes, not for merely telling "the news". And, as you know, NOT all the politicans are truthful. :D

Thank you!

[CriticalError]

Are you allowed post religon/political stuff here? This is a programming forum and such topics religion/politics should not be allowed, are you trolling?

[DeanMSands3]

@Critical Error: From the frontpage, "Our Geeks' Lounge forum is the place to chat about anything. Have fun and relax in this forum."
Technically, I could start topic about rutabagas and asparagus. I'd get down-voted for it, but I could still do it.
@Hani1991: Carry on, sir. Carry on.

[lil_bit]

I can see the linear thinking in this and how it might apply to programming. Simple interpretation: People who program or use computers have various systems of belief. The nomenclature of native language and belief will affect the memetic ideology of how they interact with technology. Simple example: How a Christian might use a computer VS. How a Satanist might use a computer. Since the Omni-Main of all code is a derivative of human intelligence, therefore we can say, in the human-political sphere, I can see how the ideology shared here thus can affect code and how we -humans- interact and exercise with such. Just think, the perfect example: the internet and how it translates to manifestations. In cyber-warfare, understanding these dynamics of human belief is a key element of variable prediction.

[mike_2000_17]

Let me retort a bit here. The point of view you expressed is exactly what I've always understood the Muslim's view-point to be and how I have perceived my muslim friends, but that's bad, and that's the problem, and thinking that this point of view is OK is even worse.

1- Islam encourages and orders Muslims to read and learn and discover everything around them in the universe. The first word that was sent to the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, was "Read!". There are also many verses in the Qur'an that order Muslims to search around them and try to discover what's in human bodies, Nature and the whole universe. Learning science is part of Islam. And God will judge Muslims who don't learn if they can.

That's alright, but not good enough. Science is the practice of skepticism. It is not something you learn in a book or read about. The fundamental requirement to be able to learn about the world around you and to discover truth is to never believe anything if you don't have sufficient evidence to support it. You cannot build knowledge any other way, every "fact" or discovery has to be supported by enough evidence to be able to add it to the accumulated knowledge in science. So, it is good that the Qur'an encourages people to "search around", but if it doesn't teach you how to do this rigorously (i.e., the "scientific method"), then it is of no use. My guess is that the Qur'an doesn't teach you to be truly skeptical, because that would discredit itself since the Qur'an itself doesn't have nearly enough evidence to support any of its claims.

2- Islam does NOT force non-Muslims to convert to Islam. Islam also orders Muslims NOT to do so. Muslims mustn't force non-Muslims to convert to Islam. "Let there be no compulsion in religion" [The Holy Qur'an 002:256]. The Qur'an also motivates Muslims to be kind with non-Muslims.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion", well that's good, but that is merely a statement of fact, you can't force somebody to believe something, you could force someone to convert to Islam and have him do all the rituals (prayers, Ramadan, etc.), but you can't force him to believe in Allah. The only compulsion that exists in religions is in the tactics to keep people from leaving the faith group, for instance: keeping people's education level low (most of the Christian Dark Ages were all about that, and religious schools today do a lot of that too); keeping people socially bound to the religious group (e.g., like Mormons, Scientologists, and many sects); and, establishing punishment for apostasy. The latter being part of Islamic law which clearly identifies a number of specific practices which would be deemed as apostasy, in which case, the punishment is death or emprisonment until redemption (how is that for "no compulsion in religion"? We put you in jail until you convert back!). And don't tell me that Islamic Law is not to be followed, because your next point says that it should be.

There is one verse (can't find it anymore) that forbids violence against non-Muslims if the "non-Muslims" didn't do anything to the muslims. However, this rule is very weak and unjust in the Qur'an for two reasons. First, the rule is not even an eye-for-eye rule, it's a life-for-anything rule that basically says that if a non-muslim inconveniences a muslim in any way, then anything goes (i.e., it's "fair-game" to kill him), it is a rule that is very easy to bend to the side of unfettered violence against non-muslims. Second, although this particular order not to hurt disbelievers (unless they inconvenienced you) is only one verse, it is amidst an incredibly large amount of verses that order the exact opposite (fight disbelievers everywhere, kill them all, fight until death, and until Islam rules everywhere, and so on..). In addition to that, the Qur'an is filled to rim with verses (almost every third verse) about how Allah hates disbelievers and how much He will enjoy burning and torturing them (and how He doesn't even want them to convert to Islam because He prefers them being killed by muslims and then tortured by Him in painful doom). If there is any doctrine in Islam about muslims having to follow the example of Allah, then that gives them a very strong incentive to want to feel the same way as Allah about disbelievers.

You really can't use the Qur'an to say that Islam is not violent. The vast majority of muslims are not violent at all, but it is not in accordance to the Qur'an, it's in accordance to their own sense of right and wrong, their own conscience and empathy, they have to start giving themselves credit for being peaceful. Stop trying to argue that the Qur'an preaches peace (it's an argument you can't win), and just start preaching peace in your own terms.

4- Islam orders Muslims to believe in all the Prophets, including Jesus Christ and Moses, and to believe in the Holy Books, including the Torah and the Holy Bible, even though Islam tells people that those Books have been distorted. Islam orders Muslims to believe in the original Holy Books. Islam names those who believe in the Holy Books the people of the Book. Muslims are told not to hurt people who do not hurt them.

I'm prefectly aware of the Abrahamic roots of Islam and how it refers to other Abrahamic religions and their followers. But I don't care, it's irrelevant. It still leaves me and a couple of billion other people out of the equation. This doesn't even touch the root of the problem, nor is it a solution to inter-faith tolerance. The only solution to inter-faith tolerance is to keep it completely private, and completely out of public policy (law, government, etc.). In other words, the only world in which all religions are free to be practiced, is a completely secular world. Religious tolerance cannot be achieved through some truce / alliance of a few major religions, it can only be achieved without any religious interferrence in public affairs.

There are stories about the Prophet Muhammad that say that when Muslims used to go to fight their enemies, although their enemies weren't Muslims, the Prophet Muhammad used to order Muslim fighters not to kill any woman, child, old man, or those who were worshipping (even though they weren't Muslims), and Muhammad ordered them not to cut any tree, or kill sheep, and other orders. Civilians were taken into consideration during battles.

Nobody is going to argue that Muslims are evil or barbaric, certainly not anybody with a sane mind. This is not the issue that the west has with Islam (except for the few crazy nut-jobs). The issue is two-fold: secularity and extremism. The former is the fact that we, in the west, have learned that the only way to manage a pluralist society is by making laws and institutions that we all agree upon, democratically, and without allowing any religious institution or doctrine to be given credence in the matter, only trusting evidence and public concensus in matters of policy. This is something the Islamic world needs to learn because it is the only viable way to go, but yet, they cling to the "Islamic Law" or an idea of an "Islamic utopia" where all is perfect because all is perfectly in-line with Islam. The truth is, nothing is perfect, but the best you can do is run a country with policies everyone agrees with.

The second criticism of the west is about extremism. Most moderate "ordinary" muslims argue exactly as you do: "we are not extremists, Islam is a religion of peace" and "extremists/terrorists are not good muslims". First of all, saying "Islam is a religion of peace" already puts you in the losing side of any debate. Second, "extremists" being good muslims or not is completely besides the point. And third, trying to dissociate yourself from extremists is bizarre to say the least. What I mean is if you hear someone say "Look at these crazy muslim extremists who are giving death threats to Salman Rushdie", and you respond "muslims are not all like that", then it is really weird, because what the response should be is "yeah, these guys are some crazy nuts and ought to be arrested". The former response only makes sense if you identify yourself as on the side of the extremists and are trying to defend your group of which a tiny fraction are extremists. This is not the response of someone who considers extremism as outside the realm of acceptable behavior. The latter response is the response the west has be waiting to hear for a long time, but it has never resounded.

Sadly, many Muslims nowadays do not follow their religion exactly as they should, but this doesn't mean that they are evil and terrorists. You may wonder why they don't follow their religion.

It is not a matter of following the religion! The religion (Islam, or others) is a mixed bag, it is full of violence, full of hatred, full of compassion, full of weird stuff, full of non-sense, full of contradictions, and full of good teachings. You can justify almost any kind of behavior with religious texts, and that has largely been their purpose throughout history. The point is to: Not let religious arguments win over rational ones! Follow reason, be reasonable, be tolerant of other views, and don't let some priests or old book tell you what you should or shouldn't do.

Actually, most of them were maltreated by those in authority. This ignorance that spread in the Arab world is not by accident! Poverty and oppression were the main reasons why those people became ignorant. I don't want to get in the history and remind people of the civilisation of Muslims in the past. Even though ignorance and poverty prevented people from learning, teaching and leading the real civilisation, a new glimpse of hope appears to be not so far.

I tend to have contempt for victim-talk (or in swedish, "offerskitsnack"). Of course, poverty, oppression, ignorance, and general despair has a lot to do with some of the more extreme behaviors and factions in the Islamic world. But it is wrong to deny that there is a strong philosophical current in these extremist factions. The despair makes them willing to do anything, the ideology tells them what to do. The principal goal and ideological pursuit of muslim-extremists is the establishment of an Islamic utopia state where Islamic Law is followed perfectly, and thus the need for a state will disolve (this is the original doctrine of the founders of Al Qeada and other extremist movements in Northern Africa and the Middle-East, starting between the 30s and 80s or so). You don't seem to be philosophically opposed to that ideology, and that's a big part of the problem, moderates glorify Islam and Islamic Law (and an idea of a "perfect" Islamic state) without realizing that this idea is the very starting point of extremisms. Making that ideology "acceptable" or acknowledged as valid contributes a lot to generating these extremist factions in the Islamic world.

Desparate people remain desparate, until you give them an ideology to cling to, then they can become murderers, or saviors. Be very careful about which ideology you choose and identify with, and allow to have echo in your society.

Unfortunately, there are so many other false facts spread around, and many people accept them since they see them in the media unknowing that many statements in the media are false! You may not believe that, but I really experience it. Nowadays, if you notice, there are, very obviously, contrary statements in the news in many parts of the world.
Anyways, truth will prevail. I hope we all try to discover everything by ourselves. For me, I don't buy many things in the media whether in the east or in the west. Those media were created for political purposes, not for merely telling "the news". And, as you know, NOT all the politicans are truthful. :D

Yeah there has been a lot of crap on both sides on this issue. I don't care for the "News" either, I research my own facts, and pick my sources with care. But calm down a little, you're starting to sound a little bit like a conspiracy-nut here. The media was not created for political purposes, it simply naturally started to crawl and get confy under the sheets with the body politic. And there has always been this kind of tendency in all forms of media since the dawn of time, it is just something to be skeptical and vigilant about.

[stultuske]

Just a remark here:
@DeanMSands3 : yes, everybody ís allowed to talk about everything he/she wants, just like everybody is allowed to ask questions.
@Hani1991: a bit like CriticalError: I'm wondering why you post this here.
I must admit, your sudden defence of your religion in this forum, kind of makes me think you HAVE to defend it here. so, either someone has been disrespecting your religion here, and you have all the reason to defend it the way you see fit (well, within certain limits, of course), but I assume a matter like that would easily have been solved by contacting a moderator.

So, I guess that's not the point here, I think you can see how your post comes a bit 'out of the blue' here, and people might wonder, and they have the right to, why you post it here.

personally, I'm not a believer. I support that everybody is free to believe what he wants. nor did I ever think every muslim is an extremist, a terrorist or a hate filled "let's bomb the west" kind of idiot. people that are unwilling to look at another religion as positive, would probably be surprised by the common parts in them. so, as far as I'm concerned christian, jew, muslim or no matter which other, honestly, that is your business, and I hope you are happy with it.
But honestly, when I come to DaniWeb, I'm not really looking to find out who has which religion, rather who has skills in what language/technique/area.

Now, just a final remark:
@whoEver it concerns: someone felt the need to downvote CriticalError's post. naturally, if you feel the post is insulting, providing wrong information, ... sure, you can downvote, but, at least have the decency to add a comment as to why you are downvoting it.
downvoting is a way to help people improve their conduct on the forum. but in order to "improve your conduct" you have to know what is considered a problem with your posts. downvoting without stating why, is a bit cowardly. if it's your opinion, just come out for it, or don't downvote at all.

[Reverend Jim]

I'm not as concerned with him posting religion based material. In Geek's Lounge pretty much any topic is fair game. What concerns me is the posting of misleading, and in some cases, completely inaccurate material. From my reading (which includes sections from the Q'uran) Islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance. While it is true that there have been periods in history where Islam was far more tolerant of other religions than others were of Islam, at its core, Islam is fundamentally an intolerant religion. Have you ever heard of a Jewish suicide bomber? Does any other religion retain its membership by threatening to kill anyone who leaves?

Lest I be considered a rabid anti-Islamist, a thorough reading of the Old Testament shows that Christians can hardly take the moral high ground. The Old Testament is just as filled with hatred and violence as the Q'uran.

[lil_bit]

Interesting thread! Definitely not dry! Who says programmers are bland and boring?!? Oh and the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 did quite a bit -ha, I said bit lol- of re-writing to the bible. The best version of the bible -without too much editing- comes from around mid to late 1600's. Of course, so has the Qur'an, and just to be clear on the linguistic side, it does not translate to the English side very well. What I mean is that you would have to understand the climate of the times in which the text(s) were wrote and compiled -ha, I said compiled!-. But yea. "Love short people!"

[Reverend Jim]

Oh and the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 did quite a bit -ha, I said bit lol- of re-writing to the bible.

An interesting book on the subject is "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" by Bart D. Ehrman

[lil_bit]

Love that title! I always appreciate first-hand interviews! > . > lmfao! <3

"Love short people! Yay!"

[Rouf mir]

Can anyone please tell me the purpose of life and all this drama in this universe?Have you ever thought about it ? Why was this earth created ?Why we were born ?Why so much harderships in the life ?What for all this?Whether we were created by someone or it just happened ?What will happen after death ?Where will we be?Where are we when we are asleep? What is a dream ? What i mean by saying "I"?is it the body i am referring to?Am i in any way similar or different from a machine ? If i am a machine then who created me ?
I am seriously not cionfusing you with the play of words ,but i am sincerely trying to increase your thirst of knowledge?
were we created or just born by overselves , whatever just to eat, live, enjoy and die? Or there is any purpose behind this cycle?
Just when you go to sleep this night try to think on the matter where you are preparing to go?Also think on the afforesaid matter?
Have you ever tried to concentrate on the vastness of this universe?
what really is in this vastness?
You might be feeling bored to read all this but it is ,infact the matter of practicality?
just sincerely practise all this once.
just try to peep inside yourself ,what you really want .
Is it the riches of this world?
If it is so why do you need them try to get the answer?
Try to get an aanswer ?
It is not thaat 'Hani' is trying to defy his religion.
It is the fact that he is sincerely trying to protect us from the fire of hell as per his religion.
How can we be so pessimistic?
He is trying to change our openion towards his religion ,so that we can movein and be saved from the fire of Hell,as changing our openion does benefit him in noways except our own benefit!!!!!
We should think the matter out!!!!!
Be patient and discuss the matter out and always imagine as it will lead you to knowledge and wisdom.And surely the wise are liked by every one!!!!
I would love to talk to you on this matter!!!

[CriticalError]

I never knew you could post religious material usually it does not go well and the topics end up getting locked, I have respect for everyones religoon (infact I am religous but no that religious) just that seeing such things on a programming forum is odd but hey why don't use geeks express our religous beliefs. Now to the topic there is nothing wrong with Islam people will always hate one another, no Muslim is a terrorist just like no priest is a child rapist and that not every white person is in the KKK.. You get all kind of people but labeling one another is not helpful.

[CriticalError]

Another point I find odd about Islam is that a lot of Western Media are against it but then a lot of people convert especailly WOMEN it is also fastest-growing religion so saying it is evil and getting thousands of people converting a year is weird.......

[Rouf mir]

Nice perception keep it up we must always respect the feelings of others:))))))
Hats off to you critical!!!!!

[Reverend Jim]

@Rouf mir

Can anyone please tell me the purpose of life and all this drama in this universe?

No. It's up to you to determine your purpose on your own. If anyone else tries to tell you your purpose, walk away or better yet, run. As far as I am concerned, as good a personal philosophy as any has been proposed by Wil Wheaton. That philosophy is "don't be a dick".

Why was this earth created?

The universe is not concerned with "why". "Why" is a concept created by people. The universe just is. I am more interested in "how" than "why".

Why we were born?

You were born because at some point your parents had intercourse. Don't read anything more into it.

Why so much harderships in the life?

A few billion years of evolution clearly indicates that for most living things, life is not easy. Except for a privileged few, hardship is the norm.

What will happen after death? Where will we be?

Remember what it was like before you were born? Same thing.

It is not thaat 'Hani' is trying to defy his religion. It is the fact that he is sincerely trying to protect us from the fire of hell as per his religion.

I have found that the same people who tell me that my religious beliefs are wrong (in order to save my immortal soul, of course) seem to get very upset when I tell them that their beliefs are in error. Is Hani trying to save my soul or merely justify his belief in a barbaric and outdated system?

How can we be so pessimistic? He is trying to change our openion towards his religion ,so that we can movein and be saved from the fire of Hell,as changing our openion does benefit him in noways except our own benefit!!!!!

He is trying to convince us that his religion is something that, by its own words in the Qur'an, it clearly is not.

We should think the matter out!!!!!

I agree. However, thinking should be done by weighing the evidence. Again, read the text in the Qur'an and decide which actions are more in line with the ideas expressed therein.

@CriticalError

I have respect for everyones religoon

I don't respect anyone's religion. I think all religions are equally crazy. When you say respect, what exactly does that mean? Does it mean "your beliefs have validity" or does it mean "I respect your right to believe in nonsense as long as it doesn't affect me"?

no Muslim is a terrorist just like no priest is a child rapist

I'll chalk this up to a translation problem. Clearly there are Muslim terrorists and child rapists in the clergy.

it is also fastest-growing religion

Partly because Muslim countries tend to be poorer overall and have a higher birth rate. Muslim families in non-Muslim countries also tend to have more children than non-Muslim families. In 2006, countries with a Muslim majority had an average population growth rate of 1.8% per year. This compares with a world population growth rate of 1.12% per year. As of 2011, it is predicted that the world's Muslim population will grow twice as fast as non-Muslims over the next 20 years.

Another reason that the Muslim ranks are swelling compared to other religions is that there is a trend for other religions to lose people as the new generations decide that their parents' religious beliefs lack relevancy. It helps that non-Muslim religions do not use death as a threat to remain in the flock.

And of course, as James Randi so aptly pointed out, no amount of belief establishes a fact.

[CriticalError]

@Reverend Jim

I was on about how western people a lot convert to Islam not the high birthrates in Muslim countries, and before I meant "Not all muslims are terrorist" mispelled.. And when I say I respect peoples belief I mean people have the right to believe what they want providng they don't shove it down my throat and they don't! So I respect them and their religous views...

[Reverend Jim]

I was on about how western people a lot convert to Islam

Got any figures to go with that claim ?

[Hani1991]

@mike_2000_17:
First you're speaking about what you obviously don't seem to know.
Second with all respect, Islam isn't Christianity or any other religion. Many principles in Islam do not apply at all to other religions.
Third I'm not trying to make you sympathize with Muslims. We don't need anyone to sympathize with us, and you'll see that Islam will spread all over the world one day.
Last but not least, I'm only showing you the facts about Islam that Muslim scholars know and teach. So, this is an invitation for you to read the translation of the interpretation of the Holy

Qur'an and realize the things you have been told the opposite of.

Who said that Islam only orders people to search for books?? I mentioned reading only as an example.
Islam even tells us that God doesn't accept a Muslim if s/he believes in Islam by tradition, e.g. God doesn't accept someone who becomes a Muslim just becasue his parents are Muslims.
In order to become a Muslim, one should believe by his mind first, not only by his heart.
I told you that you may wonder, but Islam is based on logic and invites people to use their minds in order to know the goal we were created for.

I wonder what is the "evidence" you've based your statement on when you said:
"the Qur'an itself doesn't have nearly enough evidence to support any of its claims"
This proves that you know nothing about the Qur'an. Well, there are plenty of pieces of evidence that prove that the Qur'an is the word of God who created this universe.
There are scientific proofs, historical proofs, and many others.
I'll tell you a very small proof that should lead you to the fact that the Qur'an is the word of God:
The Qur'an mentions the stages of development that a human being goes through inside a womb (starting from before it comes into the womb):
"Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; then We made the sperm into a clot congealed blood; then of that

clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to

create!"
[The Holy Qur'an 023.12 to 023.14]
Of course while the Holy Qur'an was sent to the Prophet Muhammad, Muhammad didn't have electricity, let alone devices that can monitor the development of a human feotus. So, how did

he know those stages in their order? This means that the Qur'an is sent by the One Who created this universe and knows every single detail about it. This is only one proof. There are other

proofs concerning history, the universe, and the human body, etc.

"You can't force somebody to believe something"
Who said "believe"?
Of course no one can force anyone to believe something. This fact should be taken for granted! The Qur'an differntiates between acts of worship and belief.
Another point; Muslims can't and aren't supposed to be like Allah. No one can compare to God. Also, Allah does what He considers to be the best for mankind. However, this doesn't mean

that God will wrong someone. Of course not! On the contrary, God promises those who live their lives being good followers of the morals specified by His Holy Books, He promises them

go to Paradise in the Day of Judgement and live there forever unsaddened by anything there, but rather happy and satisfied with the countless blessings there.

"In addition to that, the Qur'an is filled to rim with verses (almost every third verse) about how Allah hates disbelievers and how much He will enjoy burning and torturing them"
This is absolutely nonsese. Allah doesn't mention such thing at all in the Holy Qur'an. Where have you quoted that from? And by the way, Islam says that no one can compare to God

(Allah), i.e. you can't say that God eats, drinks or enjoys something! This isn't what Islam says or teaches.
It's true that Allah said He will send disbelievers to Hell, but He also says: "Allah doth wish to Turn to you, but the wish of those who follow their lusts is that ye should turn away (from

Him), -far, far away."
And by the way, Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, and the whole Qur'an were sent to humanity to save it from living a bad life in this life, and from going to Hell in the Judgement Day.

However, since God is Just, He will send to Hell only those who deserve. Imagine that you worked, in your job, all day and night for a month, and your colleague always escaped and

worked very little, then you come at the end of the month, and your boss gives you and him the same salary without even giving you a reward for what you'd done. How will you feel about

that? You'd feel wronged if that happened. So, the same applies here; disbelievers in their lives didn't worship God, and maybe didn't seek the truth beyond their lives, while believers

sought the truth and found it, and worshiped God during their lives and served their country for God. Would it be just for God to make their lives in the hereafter/ afterworld/ the

Judgement Day alike? Of course, no! Anyway, Allah is God and when He decrees to do something, He won't wait for you and me to discuss about it.

Also, can you quote a single verse from the Holy Qur'an that encourages Muslims to be violent against innocent people? I'm not saying Muslims don't fight at all! When Muslims fight,

they're supposed to fight hard like any army in the world, but I showed you the commandments told to the Muslim army by the Prophet Muhammad. These commandments do not exist in

any army of any country nowadays, especially western countries. I don't want to get into the issue of the massacres done with the civilians in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and

Burma today by western armies. I'm not trying to say that the western people are cruel and terroists. I'm talking about leaders who show their followers the wrong road to follow.

"But I don't care, it's irrelevant. It still leaves me and a couple of billion other people out of the equation. "
What is it that still leaves you out of equation? If you mean the fact that Muslims don't believe in other religions, then I may not deny. Muslims believe in Islam and in all the Prophets of

Allah, not only the prophets from the offspring of Abraham. Muslims, However don't believe in religions made by humans, like Buddhism, for example. However, this doesn't mean that they

have to fight Buddhists who don't fight Muslims. Muslims have to fight any army that fights them regardless of its religion. However, Islam prohibits Muslims from wronging innocent

people, regardless of their religion, too. So whatever your religion is, Islam doesn't allow Muslims to hurt you unless you hurt them. Islam also doesn't allow any single Muslim to take his

rights by his hands while under the rule of a country! Any person that is hurt or opressed can sue the one who hurt or oppressed him. And by the way, who told you that the punishment

of anyone who hurts Muslims is killing? That's absolutely wrong! This is the first time I hear such thing. The Islamic Law, that you're crticizing unknowing what it really is, has rules for

every violation of rights.

As I stated, the Islamic Law ruled the Arab region for decades, and other parts of the world including parts of France, Spain, China, Indonesia, Malysia, India, and other parts of the world,

without showing any discrimination against any race, ethnicity or religion. Otherwise, no minority would exist today in many countries, especially the Arab region. The Islamic Law is not as

you might imagine. It doesn't say that disbelievers must be killed. It doesn't allow any citizen to opress any other one, regardless of their religion, too.
The Islamic history is full of examples of justice practiced by Muslim leaders. Tolerance is an essential part of Islam, and Islam doesn't need to have such a term as an external part of it.

Islam actually includes tolerance. Intolerance isn't considered to be an Islamic behaviour. So, it's condemned, and God will judge those who oppress people.

Islamic Law is certainly perfect since it's sent from God, but the rulers and leaders who carry it out are human, which means that they make mistakes, and whenever a Muslim leader makes

a mistake, his chancellors, his advisers, judges, and people should give advice to him/her, and s/he has to accept the advice given to him/her in return. There are many principles set by

Islam in order for Muslims rule by them in their Muslim country. Those principles allow the Muslim country to enjoy a flexible law that suites each place and time more than any other law in

the world. The Islamic Law doesn't ask people to live the life people lived 1400 years ago, but it consists of principles that suite all circumstances at any time.
By the way, the Islamic Law was recognized in international law conferences including the Hague Conference on Private International Law.

"The truth is, nothing is perfect, but the best you can do is run a country with policies everyone agrees with."
Well, trying to find a single policy that everyone agrees with is absolutely utopian. Islam doesn't suggest utopian principles but gives something better, something realistic that realizes

what life is and what people need. That is what Islam urges Muslims to do.

"First of all, saying "Islam is a religion of peace" already puts you in the losing side of any debate. "
This means nothing! You've just put a statement negative another one with no proof. I can respond the same way: "You're wrong!"

Second, "extremists" being good muslims or not is completely besides the point."
If anyone has mentioned that, this is irrelevant to my discussion, and I haven't mentioned such thing.
I'm saying Islam doesn't allow voilence, prejudice, discrimination, etc.
Look, anyone can kill in the name of anything he claims to follow or support. People kill in the name of God, in the name of other people, or in the name of ideas, not only Muslims!
Jews killed, and are still killing, Palestinians in the name of God as they claim. Crusaders killed in the name of God as they claim, too. Disbelievers in many parts of the Arab countries kill

Muslims in the name of their ideas! So, it doesn't matter whether you're a believer or a disbeliever in this context.

"and you respond "muslims are not all like that", then it is really weird, because what the response should be is "yeah, these guys are some crazy nuts and ought to be arrested". "
Well, generally if you tell a Muslim a story of a criminal, the first response you've mentioned is often his/her response because of how the west thinks of Muslims, so the first thing that

comes to a Muslim's mind is to say "Muslims are not like that" trying to make you understand that s/he doesn't accept that behaviour, which should suffice for you to learn that the speaker

doesn't accept such behaviour. Hence they obviously agree that that criminal should be judged.

"The religion (Islam, or others) is a mixed bag, it is full of violence, full of hatred, full of compassion, full of weird stuff, full of non-sense, full of contradictions"
As I told you, Islam isn't like any other religion. Islam is based on rationale, and an objective rational study of Islam can lead you to what I'm saying. Actually you're just accusing Islam of

any words that come up to your mind. You have no proof at all. This is obvious from your writing. Sadly I realize that this is what people who are like you do. They just throw false

accusations against Islam. Do you know something? Why have I written this article? And why am I replying? If Islam was a religion of hatred and violence, then why do the Muslim scholars

of the Arab world still don't order their followers to attack the other religioust groups in their countries? Believe me, if a scholar said that all the people of some religious group must be

killed, almost all his followers and students would attack that religious group. However, since Islam doesn't allow such thing, Muslim scholars have been taught the morals of Islam, and

they do have them in their hearts, and they teach their students these gentle merciful morals.

"Not let religious arguments win over rational ones! Follow reason, be reasonable, be tolerant of other views, and don't let some priests or old book tell you what you should or shouldn't

do."
In Islam, the word "religious" and the word "rational" can't be seperated (metaphorically speaking). There's no single statement in Islam that contradics with science or logic.

"Desparate people remain desparate, until you give them an ideology to cling to, then they can become murderers, or saviors."
Well, this proves the fact that Islam has nothing to do with terrorists' deeds. The desperate crusaders killed in the name of their ideas just because they wanted to. Extremism belongs to

the person holding it, not the religion itself. If an extremist found one idea to follow, and that idea said: "Do NOT kill!", they would be able to change it and even ignore it and kill in the

name of it!

"I don't care for the "News" either, I research my own facts, and pick my sources with care."
I wish you did so when you talked about the Holy Qur'an. You've already stated false facts about it.

"But calm down a little, you're starting to sound a little bit like a conspiracy-nut here"
It's not conspiracy, it's what we're experiencing here. One of my dear brothers was killed by an American soldier 3 years ago in Iraq while walking in the street in the middle of the day

among a crowd of other citizens, and of course this is a tiny example of what real terrorism was practiced upon Muslims by the American soldiers and is being practiced by their followers

now. It's not conspiracy at all. I can see what's happening here by my own eye.

@Reverend Jim: "Have you ever heard of a Jewish suicide bomber?"
Have you ever heard about Palestinian civilians being killed every now and then by the Jews in Israel? (I'm not saying all Jews.)
See? This is what I'm talking about. It's media that is misleading you. You don't hear that Israeli settlers steal the houses of Palestinian residents every now and then.
And you don't hear that Israel is trying to seize control of the al-Aqsa Mosque, the third most holy place for Muslims all over the world. And this will be one of the reasons why Israel will

lose everything very soon. Muslims all over the world hate everyone who steals their possessions or kills their brothers, and that's why all Muslims have to do all they can in order to kick

Israel out of Palestine. This is another issue that cannot be discussed with me. I and all people I know believe very strongly that Israel is the oppressor and the theif, and that's why all the

world must fight against Israel, not only Muslims. However, Muslims won't wait for anyone, they'll conquer Jerusalem very soon, and they'll conquer Palestine, whether the world agrees or

not. Muslims won't hesitate to restore every single stolen centimeter of earth by all means and at any cost. This is our right and with God's assistance we will regain it.

"Does any other religion retain its membership by threatening to kill anyone who leaves?"
This was an old story that had to do with the security of a country more than religion. Three things prove this:
1- What I've mentioned in this reply.
2- History that tells the reason why those people were fought against.
3- You can't find any single instance of a man that was killed nowadays for converting from Islam into any other religion, or even into no religion.

Note: Sorry I can't get in touch with you any longer. I may stay absent for long time. I'm sorry this is because of some bad circumstances.
I hope you all think deeply about Islam and here are some resources:
elnaggarzr.com
islamweb.com

Thank you

[CriticalError]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1324039/Like-Lauren-Booth-ARE-modern-British-career-women-converting-Islam.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343954/100-000-Islam-converts-living-UK-White-women-keen-embrace-Muslim-faith.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12110372

[Hani1991]

Sorry, in my reply, the last two links are:
http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/index.php
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/
I'm closing now. I may see you after a year from now.
I hope you will be shown the truth and be able to follow it.
Thank you

[mike_2000_17]

First you're speaking about what you obviously don't seem to know.

I know a lot more than you think, it's just that I have an outside perspective, which is critical in being able to evaluate something objectively. Like with anything else, when you are too immersed into something, it becomes difficult to take an honest look at it, and religion is especially immersive and thus difficult to evaluate from an objective perspective when you are in it. Dismissing the opinions of someone giving you an outside perspective on a matter is never a good idea.

Second with all respect, Islam isn't Christianity or any other religion. Many principles in Islam do not apply at all to other religions.

Ohh, you'd be surprised how incredibly similar it looks from the outside. By the way, Christians would claim the exact same thing you do. In fact, I could probably take every word you wrote on this thread and simply change Allah for God and Muslim for Christian, and it would be really difficult to tell which is the original one. All religious folks claim there their religion has something unique, that their truth is deeper and more true, and that criticisms that apply to other organized religions don't apply to theirs, and so on so forth, but that is because they are too immersed in their religion and cannot take a step back and evaluate their religion the same way they evaluate others.

Third I'm not trying to make you sympathize with Muslims. We don't need anyone to sympathize with us, and you'll see that Islam will spread all over the world one day.

I don't need you to make me sympathetic to Muslim, I already am. I have many past and present friends who are muslims (and hopefully many future friends too!), and they are the greatest! What entitles you to say "us" in reference to Muslims? The "us" and "them" attitude is very dangerous. And as for "Islam will spread all over the world one day", well.., for one, you don't sound like the moderate you proport to be, and second, over my dead body it will! (hopefully of natural causes..;)

Who said that Islam only orders people to search for books?? I mentioned reading only as an example. Islam even tells us that God doesn't accept a Muslim if s/he believes in Islam by tradition, e.g. God doesn't accept someone who becomes a Muslim just becasue his parents are Muslims. In order to become a Muslim, one should believe by his mind first, not only by his heart. I told you that you may wonder, but Islam is based on logic and invites people to use their minds in order to know the goal we were created for.

That doesn't seem to be reflected in Muslim countries or in Muslim school in non-muslim countries. If Islam doesn't allow Muslim's to be born into the faith, then why does it count children amongst its ranks. Why is there any religious activities done by any minors? If Islam was a religion that you come to rationally, then why aren't the Muslim school entirely dedicated to producing the best possible rational individuals before introducing them to any material from the Qur'an? Isn't it in contradiction to your religion to teach any religious material to a young mind who is not yet equipped to judge it rationally. What if that child adopts Islam, without rational reasons to do so, wouldn't all his life be wasted, waiting for doom because he became a muslim for the wrong reasons. Should there be, instead, a test of critical thinking skills and skeptical reasoning before even allowing someone to be exposed to the Qur'an.

Evidently, the truth is, like other religions, Islam is not based on critical thinking and rational evaluation of evidence. And if, in Islam, as you say, the word "religious" and "rational" cannot be separated, then the problems run much deeper than I could ever suspect, it means Muslim never get educated in knowing what rationality means at all. Religions and religious thinking is based on doctrines, edicts, dogma, or other forms of "revealed truth" (and you examplify that over and over in your posts). Rationality is, by definition, the rejection of all such things, it is the idea that conclusions are only as strong as the body of evidence (and ensuing logic arguments) that have lead you to these conclusions (not the amount of evidence you gathered in defense of the conclusion), that excludes any kind of revealed truth or word of God or whatever else, because, for these things, the evidence is non-existent (or extremely thin), and the ensuing logic is irrelevant (logic arguments without supporting evidence is worthless).

I wonder what is the "evidence" you've based your statement on when you said:
"the Qur'an itself doesn't have nearly enough evidence to support any of its claims"

I am not the one claiming the Qur'an has any truth in it. You are. I have never seen any compeling evidence for any of the claims of the Qur'an, and believe me I have looked around. Even the actual evidence for the existence of Mohammed is very thin to say the least, and the main problem in this regard is that scholars are not allowed to search for evidence of Mohammed's existence because Muslim's consider it blasphemous to do so (especially in Saudi Arabia where you would need to conduct such studies), making such research a life-threatening activity (and the few that do it, do it under pseudo-nyms, and there have been a couple that didn't conceil their identity, they must now fear for their lives). But the fact remains, almost no hard evidence exists, and the evidence that does exist, contradicts the Islamic scriptures.

I don't need evidence that there is no evidence, there IS NO EVIDENCE! What else can I say, I can't talk about "nothing" forever.

I'll tell you a very small proof that should lead you to the fact that the Qur'an is the word of God: The Qur'an mentions the stages of development that a human being goes through inside a womb (starting from before it comes into the womb): "Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; then We made the sperm into a clot congealed blood; then of that cloth We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" [023.12-14]
Of course while the Holy Qur'an was sent to the Prophet Muhammad, Muhammad didn't have electricity, let alone devices that can monitor the development of a human feotus. So, how did he know those stages in their order? This means that the Qur'an is sent by the One Who created this universe and knows every single detail about it. This is only one proof.

I laughed out loud when I read this. Just like I did the first time I heard this, years ago. First of all, any embryologist can tell you that the account from the Qur'an is factually wrong, let alone being very vague. Second, this was knowledge that was known for centuries before the 6th century, by Greeks and other cultures in close contact with middle-eastern cultures. Finally, you don't need electrical or modern equipment to figure out the developmental stages of embryos. You can easily deduce the rough stages (at the very least, as vaguely as the Qur'an states them) just by examining embryos you can get your hands on from their dead pregnant animals, fallouts of miscarriages, etc. And that's how many cultures, long before Mohammed's alleged life, drafted early description of the process, which were much better that what is in the Qur'an, without claiming it can from any kind of a Deity, because none is needed to discover this. Here is a more lengthy debunking it this crazy "proof" you just put forth.

"In addition to that, the Qur'an is filled to rim with verses (almost every third verse) about how Allah hates disbelievers and how much He will enjoy burning and torturing them"
This is absolutely nonsese. Allah doesn't mention such thing at all in the Holy Qur'an. Where have you quoted that from?

Where have I quoted that from... uhmm... the Qur'an! Are you stupid or what? I tell you Book X is filled with nasty words, and you say "where is that from".. from Book X, you idiot. I even linked to an online version of the Qur'an, in English, with annotations and subject groupings of verses. Here is the link again, the "intolerance" section is especially telling. So is the compilation of good versus bad verse counts, the Qur'an contains about 1% of good verses, and about 8.5% of cruel or violent verses, and the rest is inconsequential story-telling (btw, for the Bible it is about 0.8% good and 4% bad, and the rest inconsequential story-telling).

However, since God is Just, He will send to Hell only those who deserve. Imagine that you worked, in your job, all day and night for a month, and your colleague always escaped and worked very little, then you come at the end of the month, and your boss gives you and him the same salary without even giving you a reward for what you'd done. How will you feel about that? You'd feel wronged if that happened.

Yeah, I would feel wronged. But Allah is not my boss! He doesn't exist, and even if He did, He wouldn't have any legitimate claim over my life. If I work at a company, I agree to do so because it's a mutually beneficial relationship for me and my boss. If I don't like my boss, I can leave, if my boss asks too much of me, I can protest, if my boss favors other employees who contribute less, I can express that concern to my boss, and he can change his ways. I am not a slave to anyone! And that makes a HUGE difference, and if you can't see that, you are blind.

It is completely irrelevant how "just" or "mercyful" or "powerful" a person or God is, if that person or God puts me in a position of absolute servitude to him, then that person or God is an evil bastard, period. No good deed or good intentions can redeem him from such an atrocity on mankind. This idea of considering God to be great, just, mercyful, and benevolent, while at the same time require servitude to Him is absolutely disgusting and repugnant from a moral perspective.

I showed you the commandments told to the Muslim army by the Prophet Muhammad. These commandments do not exist in any army of any country nowadays, especially western countries. I don't want to get into the issue of the massacres done with the civilians in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and Burma today by western armies.

There is something much better today, it is called the Geneva Convention. And there has been a long history of human rights charters and conventions of war, including many important documents that predate Islam, as well as independent conventions in other countries.

Now, are they always followed, no. Do armies go too far, yes. And Iraq and Afghanistan are horrible tragedies of modern times, with massive blunders and a corrupt national defense culture. The Vietnam war was also riddled with atrocities like that. So was WWII, and WWI before that. So was just about every war in history. It doesn't mean it is acceptable. We certainly have rules against it, but, unfortunately, people overlook them too much. But if you think that the stories about Muhammad forbidding his armies from doing such things were anything new, you are mistaken, the same kind of glorifying stories were told of many conquerors of the past, like Alexander the Great and Hannibal, this is just part of legend (e.g., "he was such a just king / leader" type of rethoric). And even if Mohammad was forcefully against his army committing atrocities, he certainly wasn't the first, or the last, and it would be naive to think his army followed that to the letter. And, after all that, as I said earlier, the actual few pieces of evidence of Mohammad actually tells a different story, which is that Mohammad was no more than a local warlord who had physical control of only a small region around Medina, but had enough political and trade influence to make a strong alliance with other warlords of neighboring regions, there is no evidence that any great war campaign was actually led by Mohammad (there were a couple by other warlords, no evidence that he participated in anything more than local battles). Most of the rest of the stories about Mohammad are just mythic story-telling, nothing more, at least, there is no evidence that any of it is remotely true.

If Islam was a religion of hatred and violence, then why do the Muslim scholars of the Arab world still don't order their followers to attack the other religioust groups in their countries?

Because Muslim scholars of the Arab world are not filled with hatred and violence! Stop trying to conflate Islam and Muslims, Muslims are not a perfect reflection of Islam, and thank goodness for that. I'm saying Islam is mixed bag, and is based on an incredibly violent, intolerant and cruel book. I'm not saying Muslims have the same characteristics, because they don't, and that's an empirical fact that I can never deny (and have no reason to). My point is that they are good despite their religion. Muslim scholars try to provide the best teachings they can provide, with what they have to work with (Qur'an), and they do a pretty good job at it, considering the amount of stuff from the Qur'an they have to ignore or explain away. The point is, they want to provide good teachings because they are generally good people with decent moral judgement, not because Islam is all good. The problem is, when bad people with nasty intentions are given a podium, they can read all sorts of nasty commandments from the Qur'an just as easily (if not more) as the good priests find good things to read from it. That's what a mixed bag means.

"Desparate people remain desparate, until you give them an ideology to cling to, then they can become murderers, or saviors."
Well, this proves the fact that Islam has nothing to do with terrorists' deeds. The desperate crusaders killed in the name of their ideas just because they wanted to. Extremism belongs to the person holding it, not the religion itself. If an extremist found one idea to follow, and that idea said: "Do NOT kill!", they would be able to change it and even ignore it and kill in the name of it!

Have you even read the sentence you quoted from me? If you see it as it proving Islam has nothing to do with terrorists deeds, then you must have read it wrong, because it says the exact opposite, in very clear, plain English. Desparate people are desparately looking for hope, some hope of a solution, of a better future either for them or for future generations, and they will easily cling to almost anything that seems like the promise of a better tomorrow, and the "Islamic Dream" ideology is exactly that, but it contains the poisonous ideas of absolute authority and "all means justify the end", because the end is supreme (Holy). If you agree with the "Islamic Dream", you will never be able to argue against the means that extremists choose, because their means are consistent with their ideology (yours is a position of passivity or cowardness w.r.t. to your ideology, which is very weak). Their desparate state of mind is merely fuel to burn to their means.

In the US for instance, the only way to keep the neo-nazi / white-power / KKK groups at a very low and powerless state of existence is to be in complete disagreement with their ideology (white supremacy) and all its aspects, all the time, and never accept such nasty ideas from reaching any level where it would be considered acceptable for a "moderate" person to say: "KKK guys are really bad, they shouldn't hang black people like they did, but it is true that white folks are superior, don't you think?". You would not consider one minute that a person saying that was on your side, against the KKK.

This is almost exactly the kind of position moderate muslims take when they attempt to condemn extremists' actions while at the same time preserving the "Islamic Dream" ideology (i.e., exactly the point of view you expressed), and it's an untenable position, because it is rotten at the core and stands on very weak grounds. And that is why the respond of the "moderate" Muslim world with respect to the events of the last decades has been very disappointing, because they put themselves in an extremely weak position, and that is dangerous for all of us (the whole 7 billion of us).

At some point, Muslims will have to choose: either, continue to put Islam on a pedestal and suffer from decades of surges of extremism at home and abroad, with all the inflammatory reactions it can cause in the West; or, decide to strongly condemn ideologies centered around a theocratic rule by Islamic edicts, and become secular and peaceful states where Islam can be practice in peace, outside of public affairs, laws, policies or politics.

[Reverend Jim]

@Hani

First you're speaking about what you obviously don't seem to know.

Ad hominem attack - if you can't dispute the facts then attack the person.

Many principles in Islam do not apply at all to other religions.

Can you state a few of these principles so that they can be addressed?

I'm only showing you the facts about Islam that Muslim scholars know and teach.

No. You are stating an opinion and that opinion is not backed by the facts. As lawyers say, res ipsa loquitur. The Qur'an speaks for itself. @Mike has referenced verses in the Qur'an that incite violence against non-believers. I suspect you did not respond to that because no response is possible.

It does not matter what Muslim scholars teach. What is under dispute is the basis for your beliefs. If a mathematician teaches that the value of pi is 3.0 that does not make it so. If all mathematicians teach the same thing it still does not make it so.

When I was in elementary school, each day began with a reading from the Old Testament. It was only after I grew older and read that hate and violence filled book for myself that I found out that the daily readings were carefully picked so as not to frighten. Never having attended a mosque I can only imagine that the same holds true for the Qur'an. Except of course for the extremists.

In order to become a Muslim, one should believe by his mind first, not only by his heart.

And how do the powers that be determine whether one is of the flock out of belief or out of fear? When the price of disobedience is death or isolation from community and family I begin to understand why so few people choose to keep their lack of faith to themselves.

there are plenty of pieces of evidence that prove that the Qur'an is the word of God. There are scientific proofs, historical proofs, and many others.

I would very much like you to state some of this evidence so it can be evaluated. I suspect that you will respond with something like "the real evidence is not for non-believers" which would make your logic nicely circular and therefore meaningless. So let's see some evidence. You use words such as foetus, sperm, etc. but those are your words. Your translation of the Qur'an uses the words clay, then drop, then clot of blood and lump. Hardly divinely inspired and detailed medical knowledge. Certainly nothing that couldn't have been determined by early medical practitioners. If a woman spontaneously aborts at various stages of pregnancy it would not take a genius to eventually correlate the sizes with the stages of pregnancy and make some deductions.

This is absolutely nonsese. Allah doesn't mention such thing at all in the Holy Qur'an.

Mike showed you this page which gives chapter and verse of 531 examples of how Allah hates disbelievers and how much He will enjoy burning and torturing them. Do you care to respond to that?

Also, can you quote a single verse from the Holy Qur'an that encourages Muslims to be violent against innocent people?

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

So your god makes it impossible for disbelievers to believe then condemns them to eternal torture for that disbelief. Sounds like a very large net in which there are bound to be some innocents. Can't wait to hear how you justify this in your religion of peace and tolerance.

It doesn't say that disbelievers must be killed. It doesn't allow any citizen to opress any other one, regardless of their religion, too.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. 2:191-2

Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21

They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein." 2:39

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

"They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom." 90

Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114

Need I go on?

what life is and what people need. That is what Islam urges Muslims to do.

That and a lot of killing of infidels apparently.

"First of all, saying "Islam is a religion of peace" already puts you in the losing side of any debate. " This means nothing! You've just put a statement negative another one with no proof.

You've been given 531 "proofs" which you have not responded to.

Have you ever heard about Palestinian civilians being killed every now and then by the Jews in Israel?

I said suicide bomber. I'm not talking about military attacks in retaliation to Palestinian attacks. In any case I'm still waiting for you to respond to specific statements about the Qur'an inciting violence.

Note: Sorry I can't get in touch with you any longer. I may stay absent for long time. I'm sorry this is because of some bad circumstances.

Of course. You've had your say, which consists of ignoring evidence and making false claims, and now you are going to run away rather than back up your outrageous claims. Way to keep the faith.

[Agilemind]

Can anyone please tell me the purpose of life and all this drama in this universe?
The purpose of life is to perpetuate life, the drama is a consequence of the complexity is achieving this purpose.

Have you ever thought about it ? Why was this earth created ?
The Earth came into existance because this Universe had fundamental constants (gravity and electromagnetism) which resulted in stars and planets forming.

Why we were born ?
Because nothing lasts forever so to perpetuate life it has to reproduce.

Why so much harderships in the life ?What for all this?
As before it is a result of the complexity in perpetuating life in changing and random external conditions.

Whether we were created by someone or it just happened ?
It just happened as a result of evolution.

What will happen after death ?Where will we be?Where are we when we are asleep? What is a dream ?
All evidence currently suggest nothing happens after death, we cease to exist (we don't go anywhere). When we are asleep we don't move, but we change our perceptions and the functioning of our consiousness for various reasons, dreams are a by-product of the changed perception/function.

What i mean by saying "I"?is it the body i am referring to?
Usually people mean the subjective perception of one's own consciousness likely a result of complex feedbacks in the brains wiring.
Am i in any way similar or different from a machine ? If i am a machine then who created me ?
Depends on the machine. we are quite similar to computers but then we are also designing computers to be similar to us. There is no need for a creator because evolution permits the gradual development of more complex things from simpler things (similar to gravity and nuclear fusion).
were we created or just born by overselves?
We were "created" through a complex genetic program and interactions with our mothers body after the fertilization of an egg by a sperm.
Have you ever tried to concentrate on the vastness of this universe?
what really is in this vastness?
Yes although my imagination is limited so I didn't get very far. The vastness is full of subatomic particles poping in and out of existance as well as dark energy and dark matter.
It is the fact that he is sincerely trying to protect us from the fire of hell as per his religion.
That doesn't mean I have to like or respect that goal. Quite frankly I'll take the fires of hell rather than spend eternity following all the rules in heaven (with no-one but boring religious people to talk to).
How can we be so pessimistic?
Why not?
He is trying to change our openion towards his religion ,so that we can movein and be saved from the fire of Hell,as changing our openion does benefit him in noways except our own benefit!!!!!
Wrong, changing our opinion helps him a lot because he will gain power through the favour/relationship he will have with us.
We should think the matter out!!!!!
Yes, reason and scientific evidence rather than the irrational failing of the human mind and language is our currently best way of thinking.
Be patient and discuss the matter out and always imagine as it will lead you to knowledge and wisdom.And surely the wise are liked by every one!!!!
Does one gain knowledge by talking to idiots or liers (not trying to imply you or Hianni are either of these just using it as a hypothetical) ? talking and discussion do not always lead to the best answer or the most accurate knowledge.

[firdousahmad]

rrrrrr

[abrarsyed]

islam and logic is really a very good topic to discuss about, as i m a muslim and i truly beleive that islam is the only logical religion. one of the proof in this regard lies in the name of islam.

islam means to follow/to surrender.

first thing that all of you will beleive is that there is a some supernatural power,called God, who created this whole universe. who created the universe flawless.
islam,by its name, means to follow the commandments of that supernatural power, who is creator of all, and knows what is good for all. so first logical thing is, if you really want to live a peaceful life, follow your lord,the creator of all universe(in other words be muslim).

oneness of God is the first basic pillar of islam.

next basic thing in islam is beleiving in prophets:

prophets are the human beings like us to whom God showed the right way, so that they can show that to others who have forgotten that. the remember the people that we are created by ane and only God who created the whole universe, and should follow the commandments given by him. they were role models for all humans who want to live true sucessful life.

the third most basic concept is the life after death.

justice is what everyone wants, and is in nature of humans. no one can acheive the true internal peace untill and unless he beleive that he is justified. this world is not the place where everyone can get justice. so life after death is clearly the best place where everyone gets justice and is completely logical...

the three basics of islam- bleif in oneness of good,bleif in prophets and bleif in life after death -- all are completely logical.

[Reverend Jim]

first thing that all of you will beleive is that there is a some supernatural power,called God, who created this whole universe

Bad assumption. I'm still waiting for any solid evidence on this. If you are going to claim logic then let's see some of it used to justify this statement.

if you really want to live a peaceful life, follow your lord,the creator of all universe(in other words be muslim).

I'm living a peaceful (and a moral) life without a belief in the supernatural. Are you claiming that belief in a deity is required for one to be moral? If the only reason you are acting morally is out of fear of punishment or the hope of reward in the afterlife then you are merely acting out of self-interest.

prophets are the human beings like us to whom God showed the right way

Can you prove this? How do you tell the difference between the prophet who "hears the voice of God" and those like Charles Manson or Jim Jones who are just bat-crap looney tunes?

they were role models for all humans who want to live true sucessful life

I can pick a better role model than someone who advocates mass murder

the third most basic concept is the life after death.

If by that you mean "the desperate need to believe in life after death" then we agree. Nobody knows if this is a possibility. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There is none.

the three basics of islam- bleif in oneness of good,bleif in prophets and bleif in life after death -- all are completely logical.

Let's hear the logic then.

[mike_2000_17]

islam and logic is really a very good topic to discuss about, as i m a muslim and i truly beleive that islam is the only logical religion.

I beg to differ, "islam and logic" is a pretty bad topic for the simple reason that logic alone isn't very useful, certainly not sufficient to justify belief. I could make up any weird supernatural story that is entirely consistent and logical, but it still wouldn't be true. At the basis, to justify belief, you need evidence, then you can start with the logic arguments, but only when you have established that your founding assumptions are true via a solid amount of evidence.

one of the proof in this regard lies in the name of islam.

A name cannot be a proof of anything. I can invent a religion and call it anything I want, like "The-one-religion-that-is-true", and then claim that my religion's name is a proof that it is true!

This is generally a good test to evaluate "logic" arguments / "proofs". If you can imagine inventing a religion out of thin air, and that your "logic" argument could hold just as well for that invented religion, then it means that your argument is worthless.

first thing that all of you will beleive is that there is a some supernatural power,called God, who created this whole universe.

No. I don't believe that. And in any case, the fact that many people believe in a supernatural being that created the universe has no bearing on whether that's true. What would make it believable is the presence of any evidence to suggest that a God created the world. Instead, we have a broad understanding of the mechanisms by which our universe has transformed over time (and life emerged and evolved on our planet), starting from the first nano-second after the start of the Big Bang. And in all of this magnificent story of our universe, there is no evidence of or need for a God intervening anywhere along the process, and the only reasonable conclusion is that there most likely isn't any God(s) involved (and if there is, His actions were limited to the first nano-second of our universe).

who created the universe flawless.

Your definition of "flawless" must be very different from mine. If God's purpose was to create us, then the universe is a massive waste, billions of stars in each of billions of galaxies, most of which probably have planets orbiting them, and so on. The universe is the most chaotic place imaginable, big things swallowing others, stars that die and explode sending tons of particles and high-energy radiation all over the place, bodies colliding with bodies, anti-matter filling up the space, etc... There is no order in the universe, let alone an "architect" (unless He is completely incompetent). Then, on Earth, things are even worse. Most animals live a life of torment and anguish, constantly running from predators and usually suffering horrible deaths from prey or disease. Then, human beings, with all their imperfections, have a history that reflects their violent and cruel nature, their lustful habits, and their emotional problems. Then, of course, you have to account for all the crazy imperfections in the "design" of life itself. Not what I would call "flawless".

islam,by its name, means to follow the commandments of that supernatural power, who is creator of all, and knows what is good for all. so first logical thing is, if you really want to live a peaceful life, follow your lord,the creator of all universe(in other words be muslim).

Your words are poison to my ears. I have never been fond of slavery, especially not for myself. To say that it is OK to live in slavery, if it gives you peace, is a terrible thought. Tell that to 19th century african americans. Tell that to northern african women living as sex slaves in Paris brothels. Tell that to Spanish people who lived through Franco's rule. And to top it all off, your religion tells people that they are supposed to love Allah, their master.

Now, sentence by sentence:

follow the commandments of that supernatural power

How can you be sure that the commandments you know about are truly that of this supernatural power?

who is creator of all,

Any evidence of that claim?

and knows what is good for all.

What? Where did that come from? How can you possibly be certain of the fact that this supernatural being (for which you have no evidence of) actually knows that? And how can you be sure that He wants good things to happen to you? With all the galactic-scale destruction that goes on in the universe, and all the pain and suffering that goes on on Earth, it doesn't really seem logical to conclude that the guy who created all that wanted "what is good for all". To me, it looks more like the behavior of a child having fun putting fire-crackers in ant nests, just to see them suffer and scramble for his own amusement. But then again, there's no evidence that a God exists at all, which makes more sense.

prophets are the human beings like us to whom God showed the right way, so that they can show that to others who have forgotten that.

Fair enough, I just think that such a powerful being could come up with a more reliable means of communication than whispering something in some random guy's ear and then expect everybody around him to be stupid enough to believe that he "hears the voice of God" as opposed to being just another crazy nut-job. I guess your religion also includes some sort of explanation why God can only communicate in this extremely ineffective way (probably something like "God's voice is too great to be heard by anyone").

they were role models for all humans who want to live true sucessful life.

The "prophets" that figure in abrahamic-islamic scriptures are far from being role models. Most of them were murderers, sometimes of their own children, and commanded genocide like it was nothing.

justice is what everyone wants, and is in nature of humans. no one can acheive the true internal peace untill and unless he beleive that he is justified. this world is not the place where everyone can get justice. so life after death is clearly the best place where everyone gets justice and is completely logical...

No, not logical at all. Your statement is the exact definition of what is called "wishful thinking". You want something to be true, so you believe it is (ignoring the fact that it is not). I agree that this world is not the place where everyone can get justice, but that does not mean that there is something else after just so that there can be justice. However hard you wish that to be true, it just isn't. There is no cosmic law that makes sure everyone gets justice at some point. Things are unjust and that's just the way it is, accept it.

[Ancient Dragon]

in other words be muslim).

Wong. Be Christian. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ then you will most likely burn in Hell for all eternity (there are a few exceptions).

[ivan.vodisek]

Excuse me for posting after closing, i feel this is right thing to do.

I'm so sorry for anyone of human kind that made any other to run into position to defend her/his believings. Imho noone's believings should be tested. Diversity is what makes the world turn around. If we can't trust each other, what then?

[Reverend Jim]

Imho noone's believings should be tested

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong!

Everyone's beliefs should be tested. That's how we learn the difference between reality (fact) and superstition (fiction). At one time people believed that most ailments could be cured by proper blood-letting. It was only by questioning that belief (and others like it) that we learned about the causes of diseases and the cure of many.