Islam and Logic - Page 4

[M.Waqas Aslam]

Do you believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah as handed down to Mohammed?
Yes

Do you believe that the Qur'an is infallible?
Yes

Do you believe that Islam, as laid out in the Qur'an preaches a creed of non-violence?
Yes

[Reverend Jim]

Let's start with question number three. How do you justify this belief in the face of the numerous verses in the Qur'an that advocate cruelty and violence? Here are a few.

2:6-7 Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

3:21 Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.

3:157 And what though ye be slain in Allah's way or die therein ? Surely pardon from Allah and mercy are better than all that they amass.

4:39 "Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged."
Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' as a justification for the 11 September 2001 attacks.

4:55 And of them were (some) who believed therein and of them were (some) who turned away from it. Hell is sufficient for (their) burning.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.

[Ancient Dragon]

2:6-7 Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die.

It says no such thing. Here is the English translation

2:6 Those who disbelieve — it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not — they will not believe.

2:7 Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing; and there is a covering on their eyes, and for them is a grievous chastisement.

The Christian Bible teaches us the same thing -- if you don't believe in Jesus and God you will burn in Hell for all eternity.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.

Again, that conflicts somewhat in the translation I posted. But the gist of it is the same - once a Muslem always a Muslem, and kill anyone who wants to do otherwise.

4:89 They long that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved so that you might be on the same level; so take not from among them friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah’s way. Then if they turn back (to hostility), seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take no friend nor helper from among them,

[M.Waqas Aslam]

well , can you please define what is 2:6-7 , these numbers are showing what ? i mean these are the refrence numbers ? if yes then please elaborate little bit .so i can find these verses in Quran. and answer you .

[M.Waqas Aslam]

jim , i am not an islamic scholer , so at this time i cant able to give you best answer, but i will ask about all these verses and post answers of all .
now i have to make something very clear.that as i give answers of your question with just yes and no , you will also give me answers of my question in yes and no .
1-if a person kill someone. should he be punished ?
2-if a person in USA is a traitor ,what is his punishment ?
3-Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) is this is from bible ? yes or no .
4-All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) is this is from bible ? yes or no .
after your answers i can better justify my answers , one more thing jim ,i need to the point short answers as you required from me :). and no questions in place of any answer .

Regards

[Ancient Dragon]

well , can you please define what is 2:6-7 ,

You mean to tell us you are trying to debate in this thread without knowing anything about the topic????? 2:6-7 means chapter 2 verses 6 and 7. For the Quran see the link in my previous post. Anyone who has ever read parts or all of the Bible or Quran should have known that 2:6-7 means. I'm flabbergasted.

[M.Waqas Aslam]

thanks Acient Dragon , for explaining . i was confused in this so i asked here to jim , and 2nd thing i am not here to debate on anything , i am a muslim and i want to show my point of view about islam and quran as you and others are doing here. and i read quran daily and it is from when i was little child. and as you said without knowing topic .so i think many people out here want to prove islam and quran wrong. and i am trying to show them that islam and quran are wrong , islam and quran not preaching voilence.

Regards

[Mike Askew]

Anyone who has ever read parts or all of the Bible or Quran should have known that 2:6-7 means. I'm flabbergasted.

I know what they mean and I have no association to religon whatsoever...

I now question what these people actually know when they argue points.

Been following this thread out of interest and because Reverend Jim is providing interesting points and probably the best in the thread, in my opinion of course.

[Rouf mir]

Well brother the answer to these questions goes like this....
1 Yes
2 Yes
3 Yes
I was not answering these questions because what is tyhe purpose of explaining religion to a person who doesn't beleive in the foundation of the religion ,that is the God.
So i was trying to explain or explore God first, then discuss religion???
Simple:))))

[stultuske]

what is there simple about it?
about every religion preaches that 'one should love his fellow men', yet those who practice said religions seem to read this as 'one should love his fellow men, unless he has a different skin colour, speaks a different language or doesn't say the same prayer you do, then you kick him in the nads'

the largest religions have common parts, something the 'believers' like to ignore, and, in the end, they are ruled over by ... guess what? humans.
humans aren't perfect, they make mistakes, they can have their own interpretations of certain rules, ...

whether or not there is a God who watches over us, it are still humans that dictate the 'divine laws' here on earth, so saying that "what a priest says is automatically the true word of God" is nothing but drilled-in ignorance in the mind of the drone. just like anyone else, priests, popes, and those that go by any other religious title, make mistakes.

Is there a god? possible. don't know, can't say I've ever met him, nor that I felt 'His presence' anywhere, anytime. but if there is, the chances of Allah, Jehovah and Jahwe being one and the same entity is far greater than the three of them being in a holy war deciding exactly whose followers should be allowed in heaven.

As a non-believer myself, I consider religion a beautiful thing, that provides comfort and piece of mind to millions and millions world wide, but there will always be downsides.

1. they ask their believers to 'fund' their church, but what do they pay for themselves? if you think Bill Gates or Mat Zuckerberg are rich, go check out the net worth of the pope. if they would just let the cleaning crew come every other week instead of every week (figure of speech, of course, don't know the regularity in which the Vatican is cleaned) and donated the saved amount to the poor, isn't that a bit of a better solution?
2. way too many 'religious inspired people' use their religion to pick fights or start wars, even if those actions completely contradict the teachings of their religion, and all of that, just to get in His good grace.

saying that a religion is completely and utterly violence free ... either you had too much to drink, or think that your religion only exists in your town. other town = other priest/minister/friar/... and thus: other interpretation of scripture. it may be so that in overall, it are just some extremists that preach violence, but if you think your religion has never had, or hasn't at this moment, several extremist spiritual leaders, you are a bit naïeve.

[Reverend Jim]

It says no such thing.

Actually, it does.

2:7 Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing; and there is a covering on their eye
2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.
2:104 O ye who believe, say not (unto the Prophet): "Listen to us" but say "Look upon us," and be ye listeners. For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:257 Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

Just like in the Old Testament when God "hardened Pharoah's heart" so that he would reject the pleas of Moses, thus leaving Pharoah and his people open to yet more plagues from God.

The Christian Bible teaches us the same thing -- if you don't believe in Jesus and God you will burn in Hell for all eternity.

It doesn't matter what the Christian Bible teaches. The validity or non-validity of the Christian Bible(s) have no bearing on the validity of the Qur'an. And by your statement ("teaches us the same thing") you admit that non-believers in Islam will be tortured (burn in Hell) for all eternity.

well , can you please define what is 2:6-7

The Cow (2) verses 6 and 7

2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Fair is fair. I asked simple questions and expected straightforward answers. I hope I can do the same to your satisfaction.

1-if a person kill someone. should he be punished ?

Yes, unless the killing can be justified as perhaps an act of self defense. And I don't mean the crap self-defense being spouted in the Trayvon Martin case. In most cases I believe that murderers should be punished. In the case of the Aurora, Colorado shootings I am in favour of the death penalty. And in that case, the executioner (the state) should not be punished for killing the shooter.

2-if a person in USA is a traitor ,what is his punishment ?

That's a tough one. I'm not a US citizen or resident so I don't know. What is your definition of traitor? It can vary from person to person. If I tell my best friend a very deep secret and he blabs it then I could call him a traitor. If a person abandons his faith you could also call him a traitor. Please give me your definition. If a person betrays his country then I think the usual punishment (when the country is not at war) is jail. Again, this is tough. Let's take the poor sod who gave documents to the wikileaks people (allegedly) exposing lies of the US government (illegal acts committed by the US military). Technically he committed treason. Morally he did not. That's a humongous can of worms for another thread.

3-Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) is this is from bible ? yes or no .

Yes, it is from the Old Testament.

4-All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) is this is from bible ? yes or no .

Yes - also from the Old Testament. Is it from my bible? No. I also reject the Christian Bibles. As I said earlier, nothing in any other religious text has any bearing on the validity of the Qur'an.

i need to the point short answers as you required from me :). and no questions in place of any answer .

Except for the second question (I had to guess a little on that one) I hope I have responded in kind. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this.

I was not answering these questions because what is tyhe purpose of explaining religion to a person who doesn't beleive in the foundation of the religion ,that is the God.

I understand the foundation of religion. That doesn't mean I accept that foundation as valid. A house built on a poor foundation still has a foundation. It's just not a good one. Eventually, after enough years, the house collapses under its own weight.

[M.Waqas Aslam]

Yes, unless the killing can be justified as perhaps an act of self defense.

jim in quran this act is called jihad ,Allah said in quran “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.” [Qur’an 2:190]. so if someone attacks you . its your basic right to fight with them.

In most cases I believe that murderers should be punished.

in quran Allah said ,"if anyone killed single innocent human ,it means he killed whole humanity" .

2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

yes there should be fair deal with everyone. :) jim if you read any religious book , including bible there are many verses which are showing that a last prophet will come and you have to believe them. here is a link for refrence jim please have a look at it.Click Here .so Allah give all the important points in bible ,and in quran there is one chapter about jesus.here is link of it Click Here.so jim Allah if a person believe on bible and he just not read it , he should accept that prophet muhammad is a messenger of God.and there is doom day for all of us for every muslim for every human , no muslim will be going to heaven without giving justification of his every act. and same with non muslims. they also give there justification about there every act. in hell there will muslims also.so GOD is fair with its men.

What is your definition of traitor?

traitor is person who is disloyal to his country , who work for other enemies against his country, and jim there is death for all traitors as far as i know in every country. this whole universe is created by God he is the ultimate king of the Universe he made some rules , if someone select a path of evil he is traitor to God ,and God will punish him.and i think it is fair, their is nothing unfair init .if a person who is traitor and caught by the police and he say in court that it is his fundamental right that he can do what ever he want. he never killed someone he never commit any other crime.he just pass information so why he should be killed ? then court will release him ? no , never they give him punishment.

Yes, it is from the Old Testament.

so you see that there is also a verse to kill humans , in every religious book there are many verses in which the book is saying that kill humans , thats means every holy book is preaching voilence ? . if yes jim then why every one is just against muslims , you should say that a person who believe in bible is also in favour of voilence.in Hindu books there are so many verses . in budhism there are so many verses you can google it.so if there is a verse to kill someone , you have to read the whole chapter before making your opinion you have to know story behind every verse in order to judge any verse. i know you dont know what is written before and after verses of 2:6-7.

I understand the foundation of religion. That doesn't mean I accept that foundation as valid. A house built on a poor foundation still has a foundation. It's just not a good one. Eventually, after enough years, the house collapses under its own weight.

yes you are right jim and i am agree with you , and that is the reason today islam is the fastes growing religion ,many populer people accept islam. here are some refrences
I will just mention a few of them.

“Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion. In 1990, 935 million people were Muslims and this figure had escalated to around 1.2 billion by 2000, meaning that around one in five people follow Islam. Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity” (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102) (Emphasis added)

According to Reader’s digest Almanic year book Islam grew by 235% in 50 years between 1934-1984

According to CNN.

“The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.

and you will find some othere surveys on internet .

i will try to answer your othere questions.

Regards

[Reverend Jim]

so if someone attacks you . its your basic right to fight with them.

Yes. You have the right to defend yourself. However, the defense has to be reasonable. If you are attacked physically you have the right to respond in kind. If it is your faith that is attacked then you do not have the right to respond physically. Issuing a fatwa against someone for printing a cartoon of Mohammed is not acceptable. And of course, and I stress, this is my opinion.

there are many verses which are showing that a last prophet will come and you have to believe them

Why do I have to believe them?

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise for them a Prophet like you (Moses) from among their brethren and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them, all that I command him".

You can't use one flawed religious text to support another. In any case, this doesn't necessarily refer to Mohammed. You assume it does.

yes there should be fair deal with everyone

Is it fair for Allah to prevent people from believing and then punish them for all eternity for their disbelief?

there is death for all traitors as far as i know in every country

The following countries have abolished the death penalty for all crimes, including treason.

Albania, Andorra, Angola, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Bhutan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Canada, Cape Verde, Colombia, Cook Islands, Costa Rica, Cote D'Ivoire, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Estonia, Finland, France, Gabon, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Kiribati, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mauritius, Mexico, Micronesia, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Mozambique, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niue, Norway, Palau, Panama, Paraguay, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Rwanda, Samoa, San Marino, Sao Tome And Principe, Senegal, Serbia (including Kosovo), Seychelles, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Timor-Leste, Togo, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Venezuela

My source is here

So apparently you know very little about this.

this whole universe is created by God he is the ultimate king of the Universe he made some rules

I'm still waiting for some proof. Other than the Qur'an which I have already demonstrated has errors in fact and consistency.

if someone select a path of evil he is traitor to God ,and God will punish him

I have no problem with that. There is a saying, "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". Unfortunately it is taken out of context. I believe what it is saying is that when someone breaks God's laws (and I am not saying these laws are valid or binding), that God will mete out punishment in the hereafter. It is not up to us to mete out God's judgment. It is up to God and God alone. If someone is a traitor to their country then it is up to the country (legal system) to mete out punishment. If I consider my friend a traitor for betraying a confidence then it is up to me to mete out an appropriate (and legal) punishment.

so you see that there is also a verse to kill humans , in every religious book there are many verses in which the book is saying that kill humans , thats means every holy book is preaching voilence

I agreee. The Old Testament is a violence and hate filled book. By that last statement I presume you agree that every holy book is preaching violence. Doesn't sound too admirable to me. I hold myself to higher standards.

if yes jim then why every one is just against muslims

I can't speak for everyone. I agree that there is a lot of prejudice against Muslims. A lot of that has to do with Bin Ladin and 9/11. Also, Muslims are in many cases more easily identified. A lot of them dress differently and act differently. If I were to look at a large crowd of people I might be able to pick out the devout Muslim women by their traditional garb; perhaps even a few Orthodox Jews based on the same. The Amish, as well tend to stand out. I probably wouldn't be able to tell a Christian from an atheist. Unfortunately, many people see "different" and they assume "enemy". I agree that it's unfair. I don't judge all Christians by the actions of the KKK or the Westboro Baptist Church and I don't judge all Muslims by the actions of Al Queda.

i know you dont know what is written before and after verses of 2:6-7.

You do not know because I have read the surrounding verses.

and that is the reason today islam is the fastes growing religion ,many populer people accept islam

No amount of belief establishes a fact. If that were true the Earth would be flat based on the beliefs of past civilizations. Tom Cruise is popular. Does that give Scientology any more validity than it would have otherwise? Tom Cruise is a talented actor, is well known and has a snot-load of money. None of those attributes make his beliefs any more valid than yours or mine.

In a previous post I gave chapter and verse showing that Islam contains sections advocating violence. Based on that, how can you still maintain that Islam, as laid out in the Qur'an is a religion of peace?

I also posted factual and consistency errors (man from water, man from clot, etc). Can I please have a response to that?

[Ancient Dragon]

there is death for all traitors as far as i know in every country.

US has death penalty for treason, but its rarely enforced. Most were sent to prison, some pardoned by the US President.

the United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Here is a list (very short) of persons convicted for treason in USA.

[M.Waqas Aslam]

well jim , i think we have to talk on existence of God first , before discusing any religios topic. :) please check this link jim , hope you will find something intersting.Click Here
and can you proof that there is no GOD ? :)

[Reverend Jim]

and can you proof that there is no GOD

Of course I can't. And what's more, I don't have to. Nobody can do this. What I can do is prove is that the Qur'an contains errors. That invalidates the claim that the Qur'an is infallible. I can prove that the Qur'an advocates violence. That invalidates the claim that Islam (as laid down in the Qur'an) is a religion of peace. And that's what this thread is about. What you are doing is avoiding anything that proves this. I posted proof that the Qur'an contains errors. I posted proof that the Qur'an advocates violence. Please stay on topic and respond to this. I would be happy to debate the existence of God in another thread.

Thanks for the link. I'll see if that site has anything new to say on the topic.

[mike_2000_17]

jim in quran this act is called jihad ,Allah said in quran “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.” [Qur’an 2:190]. so if someone attacks you . its your basic right to fight with them.

The Qur'anic description is not that of self-defence, it is a description of retaliation, which is very different. When Jim mentioned "self-defense" as one of a few exceptions in which killing a person is acceptable (and I agree with that), I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about retaliation, as in, someone offends you or does you wrong and you then set out to kill that person or group. This is retaliation and vigilanty justice, and I would never consider that acceptable. This verse of the Qur'an is in complete contradiction with every code of law ever written since the code of Hammurabi in 2050 BC.

in quran Allah said ,"if anyone killed single innocent human ,it means he killed whole humanity" .

That's just a poetic verse with no practical use. The absolutism of considering every murder as being the same extreme act is a very crude and ineffective basis for a code of law, and most decent codes of law make various distinctions between premeditated murder, accidental homicides (like punching someone, which then bangs his head on the floor and dies), passion crimes, psychotic episodes, murders our of needs (money, food, adiction), and so on.

Second, what is an "innocent human"? If I draw a picture of Mohammed screwing with a 9 year-old girl, am I innocent? Or am I "fighting Islam", and thus, punishable by death? Innocence is a very vague definition that allows for a lot of "bending of the rules". Soem Imams might say that any non-muslim, any westerner, or worshiper of "false Gods" is guilty (a sinner, not innocent), and thus, fair game. You probably wouldn't interpret it that way (I hope), but that's besides the point, if it can be interpreted that way or any of a number of other ways, then it cannot be the sole foundation for law, there needs to be more detailed explanations.

I highly recommend that you read the Code of Hammurabi which is the earliest text of law that exists, dates to 2050 BC (more than 2600 years before Islam), from Babylon. You'll find that it is much more sophisticated and "just" than quranic law, and it has a large amount of details that leave very little room to interpretations, which is a necessary characteristic of any description of human rights or laws. Of course, this code of law is far from meeting the standards of today's codes of laws in developed countries (and of course, allows slavery, and advocates the death-penalty for far too many crimes), but it is undeniably superior to both the Bible and the Qur'an. And, except from a few mentions of some ancient Babylonian God in the prologue, the document is essentially secural.

If the Qur'an and Islamic law compares unfavorably to an ancient babylonian text from two and a half millenia before Islam, what does that tell you about "divine inspiration"?

traitor is person who is disloyal to his country

Loyalty is a primitive behavior and is usually associated to a criminal organization. One can show that "loyal behaviors" are a direct consequence of a "prisoner's dylemma" type of situation. Of course, to protect certain state secrets, there need to be punishment (jail in most cases) for those you trade secrets to our "enemies". However, there is a fine line between treason and whistle-blowing (disclosing information about criminal or unethical behavior of the organization, even though you are supposed to be "loyal" to that organization). This is a very complex issue, and again, the Qur'an has little to say about it, besides a vague statement of "treason is bad" which is not good enough to make up any kind of reasonable set of rules for dealing with disclosure of classified information.

so you see that there is also a verse to kill humans , in every religious book there are many verses in which the book is saying that kill humans , thats means every holy book is preaching voilence ? . if yes jim then why every one is just against muslims

Yes, most religious scripture contain a lot of violence, mostly because they were crafted by very primitive societies. A few are much less violent than others (e.g., Buddhism), but that's besides the point (and "violence" is not the only way to be "morally questionable", as with Buddhism). I do not follow any religious scripture, and give them no more credence than other myths of the same time, as commentaries on the cultures they came out of.

The reason why "every one is just against muslims", I would say, is that the vast majority of Christians, Jews, Hindus and others, do not apply the violence from their books nor do they strictly follow any of the doctrines of the scriptures. Some do, of course, but not anywhere near the majority. Most states are divorced of any religious doctrines. Long story short, only in Islam do people still claim their religious law to be all good, and that it ought to be applied, verbatim, which is a horrifying thought, given the primitive and violent nature of those laws.

[Ancient Dragon]

This is retaliation and vigilanty justice, and I would never consider that acceptable.

So, if someone raped and murdered your wife, you would do nothing? I doubt it. What do you think the US should have done about 9/11? Nothing. Not on a bet.

besides a vague statement of "treason is bad" which is not good enough to make up any kind of reasonable set of rules for dealing with disclosure of classified information

Treason can occur in other ways too, such as aiding the enemy. Jane Fonda did exactly that during Viet Nam in the 1960s. Many people considered her actions treason, but for some reason (maybe money??) she was never arrested for it.

Most states are divorced of any religious doctrines. Long story short, only in Islam do people still claim their religious law to be all good, and that it ought to be applied, verbatim, which is a horrifying thought, given the primitive and violent nature of those laws.

I think God that our Founding Fathers knew that truth also. That's exactly why US has a Bill of Rights, among them is the right to practice or not to practice any relegion we wish without government ineferrence.

[Reverend Jim]

So, if someone raped and murdered your wife, you would do nothing?

I would want the person who did that to be killed slowly and painfully over a very long period. But there is a very big difference between what I would want to do and what I would actually do. One of the reasons we have laws and a judicial system is to prevent that sort of vigilante justice and (we hope) to ensure that there is a civilized and appropriate response.

What do you think the US should have done about 9/11?

I don't know, but using 9/11 as justification to invade a country that was in no way (that was ever proven) associated with 9/11 was not an appropriate response. Using 9/11 as an excuse to attack or condemn all Muslims is equally wrong. But that's a topic for another thread. This thread is about Islam and the Qur'an.

[mike_2000_17]

So, if someone raped and murdered your wife, you would do nothing?

I can't imagine. Probably every inch of me would want to kill the guy, and if I had the chance I probably would (at least, in the heat of the moment). But that said, I would probably go to jail for that, and that's OK, that's how it should be. Such retaliation is understandable from a human / emotional point of view, but still, it is not an acceptable behavior, because a civil society cannot be built on the principle that when you were wronged (victimized) anything goes. A friend of mine from Mali told me about how in his country when the police catches a criminal, they bring him/her to the victim(s) of the crime (without a trial, of course), and allow them to do whatever they feel is just punishment. I don't think that's the way you want a civil society to function.

What do you think the US should have done about 9/11?

Getting a bit off-topic here. I'd say the US should have accepted the offer of the Taliban leaders to deliver Ben Laden and all afghani Al Qaeda members to the US on a silver platter, and then, put them up on trial. That is what should have happened instead of the horrors of the past decade. But that would have required Bush to understand that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are completely separate (and largely antagonist) organizations, and that they clearly stated that they were happy to deliver Al Qeada to the US, if it would avoid an invasion.

The fact that most of the US people wanted to bomb the $%"! out of afghanistan is understandable, but it does not make it an acceptable or civilized solution.

Treason can occur in other ways too, such as aiding the enemy.

Sure. Whatever the forms of treason, the point remains, there is a fine line separating acts of treason that should be punished and acts of "treason" which are justified as being against illegal or unethical acts of the government or military. Leaking pictures of Abu Graib is not treason, it is whistle-blowing, and completely acceptable. Treason is a complex issue that can hardly be sufficiently described in a few sparse and vague verses in an old book. That's the point.

[M.Waqas Aslam]

A few are much less violent than others (e.g., Buddhism),

mike_2000_17 , please just google what buddhisit are doing in burma ,:) you will find that buddhism is also very voilent

[mike_2000_17]

@waqasaslammmeo: Sure, buddhism is also a bad example, it's kind of hard to find a religion that doesn't contain a lot of violence, buddhism just comes to mind, but it is not really a peaceful religion either, but I repeat what I said about that subject: "that's besides the point." I was trying to make the point that this is not a battle between religions. I don't care what other religions say or how Islam compares to them, that's completely irrelevant. If you want to claim that Islam is true, "logical" and non-violent, then that claim must be supported on its own. What I mean is that trying to establish that Islam is more true, more logical and less violent than other major religions (which I think are all completely baseless and primitive anyways) is a pointless exercise because it doesn't get you any closer to the truth (and also because these kinds of comparative discussions are so heavily biased by the participants, which are both evaluating things with large openings for interpretation). Your burden is the following:

To establish that Islam is true:

• Show that all statements in the Qur'an are clearly true, without room for interpretation.
• Show contemporary, non-quranic evidence of the events described in the Qur'an, such as the genesis accounts, the "old testament" stories, the life of Mohammed, his battles and so on.
• Show that the Qur'an could not have been written by anyone but Allah (through Mohammed). This is going to be a really hard one, because you technically have to rule out all the possibilities, including wacky things like that it was written by an alien race that may have visited Earth at that time.

To establish that Islam is "logical", in strict order:

1. Show that there are no contradictions between the "teachings" of the Qur'an. Which is called consistency.
2. Show that there is no room for interpretation when it comes to understanding the Islamic laws or doctrines. Which is necessary for validity of the system.
3. Show that all applications consistent with Islamic law or doctrines have yielded the expected results (ideal society, or whatever Islam says it should yield). Which is necessary to ensure the system is grounded in truth, i.e., empirical evidence that it works.

To establish that Islam is non-violent, well, once you have established that all in the Qur'an is true and logically consistent and valid, then it is merely a matter of counting the number of Islamic teachings which promote or incite violence, and if the final count doesn't come to zero, then you have to accept the conclusion that Islam is violent.

Here are my contentions:

• If you can't show a significant amount of evidence for the truth of Islam, you must suspend judgement, that is, you do not have sufficient reasons to believe in Allah or the truth of Islam.
• If you can't show the logical consistency of the Islamic system of laws and doctrines, then it is uncertain whether it is beneficial or even possible to follow this system absolutely, in which case, the best you can do is take some inspiration from it, but not follow it with intransigeance.
• If you can't show that Islam is non-violent, or, I prefer to say, morally just, then your sense of compassion for your fellow human beings should compel you not to follow this system or law, in other words, be in opposition to it. If you find that Islam is morally unjust and a corrupt system, but you still choose to follow it, to keep serving Allah, then you have lost all humanity and are my enemy.

[Reverend Jim]

@waqasaslammmeo

I pointed out both factual (small sun that sets in muddy water) and consistency errors (man from water, clot, dust, clay, etc). Instead of responding you said "let's discuss something else". I would appreciate a response that addresses these errors instead of still more waffling.