Actually Linsux runs on BSD. Wouldn't expect anyone to dig that far. They also are primarily against Linux zealots, not so much the software itself (which most of the members there use on a daily basis).
terra-bite 0 Newbie Poster
The Mad Hatter -3 Junior Poster in Training
You my buddy, take the cake. In fact I'd bet you are a closet Windows addict, scared witless because the various OSX, BSD, and Linux operating systems make Windows look sick.
It's hard for me to admit it but there are things, ten things to be exact, that I really hate about Linux. Sometimes I think it's just me but I do see other people stating a few of these in the forums so I'm at least not alone with some of these issues.
I did some research a while back, along with a couple of other people, into Anti-Linux/OSX Trolls. We were able to track back on a large number Troll posts, to a small number of people, most of whom were associated to Microsoft partner companies. Our conclusion was that these people had an economic basis for their posts, since the posts, like yours, had nothing to do with reality.
These are in no particular order and they aren't just rants; they're legitimate problems and issues that I find annoying, destroying or cloying. Feel free to add your own to the list in the Comments section.
Illegitimate you mean.
1. Too Many Good Distros
Did you complain about the amount of choice last time you went car shopping, or video camera shopping? I doubt it. So why do you complain about this? No one is forcing you to try them all. Choice. He doesn't like choice. Sounds like Bill Gates.
2. Lacking Popular Application Support
I suppose you would make the same complaint about OSX. It doesn't support QuickBooks. Guess what - QuickBooks is only popular with Windows users. Mac users like IBank. Linux users like GnuCash. This is another Windows user complaint - things are different on that Operating System, therefore I don't like it.
3. Dependencies
I've been running Linux for three years, and I've never had Dependency issues. The only reasons I can think that anyone would have Dependency issues is Incompetence Above and Beyond the Call of Duty.
4. Rancid Fan Base
Right. The Rabid Windows Fanbois aren't a problem though.
5. Linus Worship
As compared to Bill Gates worship, or Steve Jobs worship? No one worships Linus. Unlike the other two, he's too accessible to the general public. As is Stallman.
Only an idiot, or a Windows fanboi would think that Linus invented free software. I've heard this argument made many times by Trolls, including in my own blog.
6. Anti-Linux Nerds
Gotcha!
7. Unchattiness
You like an operating system that treats you like an idiot? Tastes differ I guess.
8. Built-in Virtualization
If you wonder why they chose KVM over OpenVZ, why don't you ask, or read the Linux Kernel Mail List, rather than mouthing off here.
9. Software Repository Trickery
Really? So you deliberately enabled the non-free repositories, and now you are complaining about it? Every distro I've looked at has warnings about this - the message that you were complaining that Linux "doesn't have".
10. Stability
Now we get to the point. His problems are economic. He makes more money off Windows, so he wants us all to think Linux is a piece of garbage, and we won't use it, because if we do, he'll go broke.
God I love trolls. They are so consistent.
jbennet 1,618 Most Valuable Poster Team Colleague Featured Poster
I've been running Linux for three years, and I've never had Dependency issues.
Seriously, just try installing the groupwise client on anything other than SLED and you will enter dependency hell.
Linux users like GnuCash
No. GNUCash is horrible. Truly horrible. Ive resorted to WINEing Money 2000.
Other than those points, i agree with the above poster.
masternetra 0 Newbie Poster
@Author #2 - .bin, Last I checked binary self reliant applications and games do exist and aren't distro specific, so there goes the latter half of your argument.
dee_tewari 0 Newbie Poster
Well, I think for newbies who do not have the will to go up the learning curve on their own ... Linux could be scary ... however, if their boss/employer asked them to do it ... then the motivation (read requirement) changes! Then they'll probably understand everything! I've seen that often :)
sword of truth 0 Newbie Poster
11. Any old yahoo with a digital crayon can post stupid crap about Linux. For example, some loudmouth could gather up some of the best features of Linux and write some bass ackwards article about how freedom of choice or stability are somehow bad.
The Mad Hatter -3 Junior Poster in Training
Seriously, just try installing the groupwise client on anything other than SLED and you will enter dependency hell.
No. GNUCash is horrible. Truly horrible. Ive resorted to WINEing Money 2000.
Other than those points, i agree with the above poster.
Never played with Groupwise, I cheat and use GMail.
As to GnuCash, I rather like it.
markdean 4 Junior Poster in Training
Interesting list. Regarding points 2 and 3, I think you do not understand what a package manager does. A package manager, be it .deb for Debian/Ubuntu and its derivatives or .rpm for RH and those that use it, or whatever, does exactly what you are requesting. It simply combines or "packages" up the binary files needed to run the application, a list of dependencies, and instructions on where to install the files into a single, installable file. They are easy to maintain and you can even use one distro's package to install an app on another, i.e. using alien to install an .rpm on Ubuntu. So a vendor does not need to choose one over the other as they are trivial to put together and you can even use one to create the other.
If you use the system's application or software installation facility, it automatically installs anything that needs to be installed with it, including libraries or other packages. It has been years since I've encountered any dependency hell. A simple yum install <whatever> (or apt-get) and I'm done-it will list out and install the package as well as all the other stuff that needs to go with it-including the ever present libraries.
Now, you mention having whomever created the package install whatever needs to run an application into the package. That's a bad idea. It would open Linux up to the same DLL hell that Windows suffered with for so long. Maybe a developer likes to use an older lib file or a newer one that may break other applications or have some hideous security hole. That's why it's better, for the majority of users, to use the distro's software installation repository where things are generally tested and at least there's a place to go if something breaks.
When you install from source, what you are really saying is 'I know what I'm doing and I will handle everything that needs to happen to make this application work, including dependencies'. It also means you are going to read the README file that comes with all source and make sure you have satisfied the dependencies, as well as where to install and what options you want, etc. If you do a simple ./configure && make && make install without reading the file, you will surely only frustrate yourself. I compile from source a lot as well and I'm rarely bit since I read the file first.
As for #8, as one who works with virtualization as full time job, container based virtualization, although having its place as a virtualization solution, is inferior to virtualization platforms such as kvm, and xen and certainly inferior to VMware's ESX hypervisor as these do not tie the host to the VM as containers do. Using non-container v-platforms, I can run *any* x86 OS-the same cannot be said of container based virtualization. It does have a place as a solution and I've used it a lot in my Solaris work but since it limits the type of VMs to the host OS, it should not be the one that is the "default" hypervisor. I actually am not necessarily in favor of any virtualization included in the kernel (as I'm one that is concerned about too much stuff being added already) but if one is included, kvm or xen are the ones I'd prefer.
And I'm with others who have posted that complaining about choice or stability is just plain silly. As a consultant, I'm constantly finding ways to add value so maybe you need to think about what you can offer your clients. One thing I've done is showed them how they can now collapse their many physical Linux systems onto fewer servers. Then there are the ever present patching and testing those patches. So, there's work to be done. You just have to sell it.
As for choice, choice is freedom. The more choice, the more freedom. And true freedom is becoming a rare commodity in our lives and at least for my OS choice, I still have a lot of it.
antoine7 0 Newbie Poster
Re #7 Unchattiness. Reminds me of the carpenter who preferred a hammer that required him to answer Yes each time before swinging it. It's seemed safer for a while, until he got so fed up with having to say yes he spoke too soon and smashed his thumb. Maybe it's better to learn to respect the power of a tool--such as the command line--right from the start, then get on with it.
nileshgr
Re #7 Unchattiness. Reminds me of the carpenter who preferred a hammer that required him to answer Yes each time before swinging it. It's seemed safer for a while, until he got so fed up with having to say yes he spoke too soon and smashed his thumb. Maybe it's better to learn to respect the power of a tool--such as the command line--right from the start, then get on with it.
Good one ;)
What you say is very correct. Linux command line can do almost the most unimaginable things with the system.
landonmkelsey -1 Newbie Poster
The world is getting tired of the bully monopoly evil empire. The list of Microsoft atrocities is documented in court! W7 is prob Vista cleaned up a bit.
I happen to love Fedora linux with all its problems. One problem being what is required to install an nvidia video driver.
French police switch to Linux
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2007/06/french-linux-ve/
And we all remember some years ago Munich Germany switching 14,000 computers to Linux. Do a search!
F Scott Fitzgerald once said "the mark of a first rate intellect is the ability to hold two conflicting ideas in ones head and AND function"
I develop under windows AND Linux! Fedora Linux (what I use) suffers from an inbred crowd resembling a feudal system from the dark ages. Fedoraforum.org is guarded by leigh123linux an arrogant _____ who condescends with comments like
"I've had enough spoon feeding for today". Fedora has deemed the world of its users too dull to be able to log in as root so they tried to make it impossible.
I know how to log in as root.
If one leave SELINUX in enforcing mode, you will be stopped even when doing simple tasks like edit a text file. AND then there is pam.d that they try to use to stop logging in as root.
Feudal=a person builds control and then "rains" on underlings. The MSDN forum has other problems. People who must not be able to read making posts........and second guessing others in order to get points. I love mono where one can run C# Visual Studio projects!
OH HOW I LOVE Firefox where one can 101% block annoying ads.
BTW what is google other than a search machine and another ANOTHER browser
that does not feature ad blocking?
I still use XP Prof SP3! nothing is perfect! I don't like being bullied
This web site needs copious work!
landonmkelsey -1 Newbie Poster
The world is getting tired of the bully monopoly evil empire. The list of Microsoft atrocities is documented in court! W7 is prob Vista cleaned up a bit.
I happen to love Fedora linux with all its problems. One problem being what is required to install an nvidia video driver.
French police switch to Linux
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2007/06/french-linux-ve/
And we all remember some years ago Munich Germany switching 14,000 computers to Linux. Do a search!
F Scott Fitzgerald once said "the mark of a first rate intellect is the ability to hold two conflicting ideas in ones head and AND function"
I develop under windows AND Linux! Fedora Linux (what I use) suffers from an inbred crowd resembling a feudal system from the dark ages. Fedoraforum.org is guarded by leigh123linux an arrogant _____ who condescends with comments like
"I've had enough spoon feeding for today". Fedora has deemed the world of its users too dull to be able to log in as root so they tried to make it impossible.
I know how to log in as root.
If one leave SELINUX in enforcing mode, you will be stopped even when doing simple tasks like edit a text file. AND then there is pam.d that they try to use to stop logging in as root.
Feudal=a person builds control and then "rains" on underlings. The MSDN forum has other problems. People who must not be able to read making posts........and second guessing others in order to get points. I love mono where one can run C# Visual Studio projects!
OH HOW I LOVE Firefox where one can 101% block annoying ads.
BTW what is google other than a search machine and another ANOTHER browser
that does not feature ad blocking?
I still use XP Prof SP3! nothing is perfect! I don't like being bullied
This web site need copious work!
jbennet 1,618 Most Valuable Poster Team Colleague Featured Poster
BTW what is google other than a search machine
An advertisng company. Thats what it *mainly* is.
cookdav 0 Newbie Poster
(9) On the non-free software issue, some Debian geek (I use this term in a POSITIVE way) has developed, as a tribute to Richard (M) Stallman, the root-cmd 'vrms'.
It is very cool, as it just LISTS all the pkgs on your system that happen to be
'non-free'. Just install the package of that same name.
Long live the Debian-family! (My favs are MEPIS, sidux, Debian, and Kubuntu.)
landonmkelsey -1 Newbie Poster
It would help if the caretakers for
(1) bugzilla (redhat)
(2) fedora-list
(3) fedora forum
were friendly
These facilities know of whom I speak.!
Right now in Fedora there is a mess concerning nvidia video drivers.
Right now??? This has been going on for years! Sure there are excuses
but consider the fact that XP Prof sees the new hardware and unassisted, installs the new correct driver. I haven't done harware intimate programming/analysis in decades. I want to be a programmer C++ C# PHP SQL RDB
Maybe it might be fun to become an expert in
nvidia, xorg, grub, PAE, X11, yum, selinux, pam-d etc
but I might as well write my own OS
yum does work very very well...amazing what one can get for free!!!
On the subject of SELINUX...If I left selinux in enforcing mode, I'd be stopped from doing trivial little tasks such as surfing the web or editing a text file with kwrite.
Nevertheless, Fedora 12 is awesome...what do you expect for free.
sureronald 0 Junior Poster
I hate that I can install an 8 yr old version of Microsoft Windows XP that was bought the first week it was released on my Core i7/X58 chipset system, but can't install a Linux distro that doesn't have, at least, kernel 2.6.27. Why? Why can Windows be written so that the CD boots and the OS installs on a system built 8 yrs after the OS, despite there is no drivers for the chipset on the XP disk, but Linux can't? I couldn't even fathom trying to boot Mandrake Linux 7 on this system. This is something that frustrates new users that have very new hardware.
Almost all harware are designed for windows. GNU/Linux distros only try to support as much hardware as they can!
Rishikeshan 0 Newbie Poster
Ialso hate GNU coz it is GPL!
pakishpk 0 Newbie Poster
Very Informative Post
It's hard for me to admit it but there are things, ten things to be exact, that I really hate about Linux. Sometimes I think it's just me but I do see other people stating a few of these in the forums so I'm at least not alone with some of these issues. These are in no particular order and they aren't just rants; they're legitimate problems and issues that I find annoying, destroying or cloying. Feel free to add your own to the list in the Comments section.
1. Too Many Good Distros - I hate the fact that it's so hard to choose among all the distributions (distros) to use. It's almost impossible to settle on just one for daily use. If you've seen my "10 Best Linux Distributions of 2009," you'll know why--they're all good. When I looked for a distribution to use for myself--other than virtualized ones, it was next to impossible. I finally decided on CentOS because of its basis in Red Hat Linux. It was a matter of familiarity. For most other server-oriented things and appliances, I use Debian--the King of Distributions.
2. Lacking Popular Application Support - No, Linux doesn't need to run Microsoft Office and I know about OpenOffice.org but still there's a barrier to application support for Linux. Now, a lot of the lack of application support isn't because of Linux necessarily but if you're a software company like Intuit, which distribution do you support? Do you support SUSE and alienate Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu, Slackware and others? Or do you offer your application in several different formats and in source form? It's a difficult, if not impossible, task. Maybe if all the distro maintainers would get together and come up with a single package format but that will never happen.
3. Dependencies - Whether I'm compiling from source or installing individual packages, there seems to be a never-ending list of dependencies that I have to satisfy before I get to install my original software goal. Often I forget what it was that I started when I get buried in dependencies. Yum and apt-get help considerably in this area but they aren't perfect. On server systems, I often like to compile my apps for better support and performance so I have to spend hours downloading, compiling, satisfying dependencies for those dependencies and so on and so on. The solution isn't easy since developers will often use a diverse list of software in their own but it would be nice if they would just go ahead and package the dependencies along with their software since I'll need them anyway. I know sometimes there are license restrictions but if there are such restrictions, use a different package.
4. Rancid Fan Base - I know that the fan base isn't part of Linux but goodness some of these people are absolutely mouth-foaming and borderline crazy. Even a longtime Linux fan and semi-expert like myself, will receive hate mail about something I said. It's incredible how many "experts" (who have vehemently opposing opinions) I run into when giving my analysis of something Linux-related. I don't mind when people comment intelligently but all too often I just get weird and rancid commentary. People who think of things like Linux as a religion bring a certain 'extremist' flavor to the mix. It turns off a lot of people, not just me.
5. Linus Worship - Many of the fans mentioned in #4 above fall into this category as well. People assume that Linus Torvalds created free software and that Linux was all his idea. What they (and possibly you) fail to realize is that ideas are built upon by many people over time. Linus used Minix as a template in developing Linux though he decided to use a monolithic kernel instead of the microkernel architecture of Minix--he still had a head start by using it as a design "go by." It was actually Richard Stallman who first came up with the idea of a GNU (Gnu's Not Unix) operating system based on all free software while Linus was still in diapers. This is one reason why Stallman insists on Linux being called GNU+Linux.
6. Anti-Linux Nerds - This is a generally ill-informed group of Windows fanboys who'd rather spend their time complaining and grinching about which they know very little and contributing nothing of value to either Linux or Windows. My favorite batch of do-badders is over at linsux.org. Though not directly related to Linux, without Linux they'd only have the Mac OS to rail against and that loses its luster pretty fast, since those sandal-wearing, ponytail-sporting, Prius-driving, one-button-pressing Mac addicts are far too intellectual to bring themselves to respond to such drivel. I, however, am not--I do like a good fight. Keep 'em coming linsuxers--you provide me with plenty of posting fodder.
7. Unchattiness - This hate derives from Linux' Unix origins. Unix isn't chatty and therefore Linux isn't chatty. We should really change that. For new users, this is especially annoying. The unchatty nature of Linux is often one of the major barriers to Linux adoption among the masses. Although they don't know what to call it, that's what it is: Unchattiness. There's no "Abort, Retry or Fail?" and no "Are You Sure?" prompts to guide the user. Linux, like Unix, assumes you know what you're doing and it lets you do it. This is bad. Really bad. We need more than just a nice, sleek installer and a cute Windows/Mac-like desktop interface, we also need some feedback about what the hell we're doing when we're doing it. Come on guys, make it chattier or else. Or else I'll complain some more.
8. Built-in Virtualization - What's up with this? Built-in virtualization--right into the kernel. Now there's an innovative and bold move to be sure. KVM has been included in the kernel code since kernel revision 2.6.20. I don't have a problem with virtualization being built into the kernel but I'm wondering how they chose KVM over OpenVZ? OpenVZ seems like more of a natural fit, if you ask me, because it is container-based virtualization better known to the world as BSD jails. This type of virtualization comes standard with Solaris, OpenSolaris and the various BSD derivatives. I don't hate built-in virtualization. I hate the fact that OpenVZ isn't also part of the kernel. It would make sense to do so.
9. Software Repository Trickery - I hate that there's a lot of non-free software hidden in software repositories that you can be tricked into installing without any warning or knowledge. There should be separate repositories for non-free components and a warning when you install those components. Installing those components without my knowledge or approval is a violation of my freedom. See the Free Software Foundation (FSF) information for details. Before someone takes away your freedom, you should be warned and have the choice to refuse the software.
10. Stability - This is an odd hate but hear me out on this. For eight years, I owned and operated a computer consulting business and whenever I converted parts of my client's infrastructure to Linux, I basically hurt myself. I hurt myself by giving them something so stable and unbreakable that I found myself wondering why I had done such a silly thing. Oh, it was good for them. They didn't have to call me that they had a virus or other software weirdness on their systems nor did they have to call and say our system just rebooted and knocked everyone off. The time I spent automating their tasks with shell scripts, PHP and Perl was for naught--at least for me it was. It wasn't until I had several of my clients on Linux that I realized what I had done. I was killing my business. After I woke up, I decided to let nature take its course and allow them to use their beloved Windows and I would cash the checks.
Do you have any Linux hates to complement mine? Add yours in the Comments section.
The Mad Hatter -3 Junior Poster in Training
Ialso hate GNU coz it is GPL!
Um, pardon me, but what exactly have you been smoking?
GNU is the GNU tools, which sit on top of the Kernel, and give you an operating system. Software in other words. The Gnu tools are also used on BSD and CDDL licensed software, and could be used with the Windows Kernel if someone wanted to go to the trouble.
The GPL (General Public License) is a series of software licenses.
Which do you hate?
LunyCoder 0 Newbie Poster
OK I like Ubuntu and have installed it on two systems. I recently upgraded (or so I thought) to a 16gb 2tb 8 processor system with windows 8. I can't install a working version of Linux for the life of me. Ubunto and Fedora just won't install. Mint wouldn't install but now the latest KDE version did. It works but the mouse is invisible... but works. AAAAAAHHHHHH! I see complaints about an invisible mouse from years ago. It's not solved yet... I want to develop android apps on Linux with Eclipse. Well Eclipse installs and works on 8 pro but the debugger won't work hence linux. But no dice. Nothing just works. I want to screeeeeeeeeeeeam!
Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster
I only complain about the dependencies and stability.
I'm using Xubuntu right now and have all kinds of useless programs installed as they're required by more useful programs...
alot of wasted space here.
as for stability, nearly every kernel update I get gives me a new thing that no longer works properly...
for example, BrawlBox is a program I use constantly for doing things similar to what my avatar displays...
I broke my x86 wine prefix by installing Visual studio, so it's my fault Brbx doesn't even start up on that, but it used to run just fine on x64...
now it crashes in random places.
also, I don't see too many good distros...
I have a dual monitor setup, which most distros can't draw across...
a few can, but some of those are picky:
Lubuntu can't display your desktop files on both monitors
Kubuntu's desktop manager is just plain annoying
the last distro I tried was Xubuntu, and I don't think there's anything better.
Zorin is good for starters, but (as a Zorin6 user) it lacks alot of features such as hibernation, which for some reason seems to be unheard of in the linux community...
it's built into the kernel, but you have to mod it into your distro...
and here's another issue I'm facing:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/-JmweKUNxZdM/TgUHEsT3wiI/AAAAAAAADZk/E1Tk8pxsL1o/s1152/computer.PNG
^tell me how I'm doing this w/o SLI or crossfire (WinXP; PCI video card)
(I can't do this on a newer PCIe16 rig with xubuntu)
the only thing I really have to complain about is the lack of support...
and then there's the engineering stupidity of a programmable bios which can compromize your rig into never running again from a simple download.
(this is easier done on linux than windows)
there's so many things I can complain about, but I'll just leave it at most of the major things here.
XP78USER 30 Posting Whiz in Training
I never liked Windows myself only to find myself caught up in their mess!
And when it comes to BETAS it's even worse.
I would rather stick to linux than Windows
Leslie_1 14 Newbie Poster
I hate complainers. Complainers will always find fault with everything, from wife, parents, children to hardware, software.
Its the complainers, the sour grapes type of knockers that get the spam, the "hate mail".
For every complaint that was issued, in the preceding comments I can provide a counter example.
There are reams of good documentation, and wonderful friends that will bend over backwards to help.
mgfrobozz 0 Newbie Poster
I'm 100% with you on point 10 ... if you're supporting customers on linux (instead of customers on windows), you're not going to have a lot of support work for which you can charge the customers.
As a software developer, I started using linux/fedora4 at work in 2005 when IT couldn't solve a number of problems on Windows. I didn't bother to attempt to convert others to linux because they were my competitors, and my productivity on linux was so much better than their productivity on windows. There were a few that dropped by to ask about my toolset; I ended up helping those that specifically asked about moving to linux.
I started using linux/fedora5 at home when I got tired up Windows crashes and Windows opaqueness. Regarding #7 (chattiness) on the list, my experience is that Windows didn't tell me squat about how to recover from problems, but linux usually had error messages that I could easily google. The linux user community was pretty obsessive, but on the side of obsessively helping anyone who asked for help.
One stumbling block in converting our home system was convincing my wife to move to linux. Like many non-linux users, her image was that only grey-bearded former PhD grads could run it. I'm glad to say now that most of her gripes center on the fact that she's not allowed to use linux at her workplace (a public school system, like many others, that prefers to hand over significant chunks of their very limited budget to Microsoft for an inferior product.
evanx 0 Newbie Poster
your points are well made !
as a longtime user/professional in linux going back to 90s, i did notice that many longtime/hardcore linux users tend to be elitist - which is a stupid attitude actually
of course Linus doesn't help, i mean he can be rather rude and abrasive in his emails apparently - but his strengths are clearly technical and not PR
my advice to anyone - just use Ubuntu and Unity - and ignore all and any negativity - there will always be funny people and behavior - but for each of these loudmouths, there are million other people forming the silent majority
PS. i have been a longtime RedHat/CentOS user on servers (and i love yum - much friendlier than apt-get and its minions) but now considering Ubuntu even for prod servers. Ubuntu rulez even if Canonical are quite focussed on mobile - but that has yielded Snappy, and such tech for atomic updates will be awesome for servers. Hopefully they manage to stay in the server game and compete with CoreOS and Alphine.
Andrew_29 0 Newbie Poster
Good Points.And also, paid applications not fully supported on Linux
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