Ancient Dragon actually made a very valid point. When things don't work in Linux it feels like you're banging your head against a brick wall. It's been my main OS for almost 10 years, but there are still things here and there that make me go absolutely crazy.
It's funny though because I recently had the same exact experience as AD. I wanted to do some C++ programming in Linux and had a hard time choosing between gtkmm and wxwidgets because I knew nothing about them. I installed the dev packages and I couldn't get even a basic hello world program to compile in either. It literally took HOURS to figure out what libraries were missing. In Windows when you install a program it comes with everything you need. I could have probably compiled the same hello world program in 10 minutes in Windows using the same wxwidgets or gtkmm libraries. So there's no need to get defensive Linux users. There are things in Linux which are great and there are things in Linux that absolutely and completely suck. That's just the way it is.
So there's no need to get defensive Linux users. There are things in Linux which are great and there are things in Linux that absolutely and completely suck. That's just the way it is.
I totally agree with this statement. It's just some people don't realize this statement holds true for any OS.
So there's no need to get defensive Linux users. There are things in Linux which are great and there are things in Linux that absolutely and completely suck. That's just the way it is.
I agree on the command line side of things but when using the GUI, it is just as easy as windows especially if you have Ubuntu which feels like Windows. The thing that makes Ubuntu easy is that part of the GUI for installing programs. Now that's handy and automatically selects required modules.
I get Windows Anxiety whenever I have to use it. Don't know where everything is!
I expected such talk from a newbie whose only knowledge is most likely windows packages. From an expereinced poster like you and more so a very good programmer who understands the computer inside out using Linux should be relatively easy!!!
I expected such talk from a newbie whose only knowledge is most likely windows packages. From an expereinced poster like you and more so a very good programmer who understands the computer inside out using Linux should be relatively easy!!!
I guess that's what books and the internet are for. I read a lot of that to know where everything is. But yes, at first Ubuntu can be scary if you haven't done your research but the same applies to windows. The difference, more people know windows inside out so it is easier to just ask the person beside you about Windows than it is to read a manual about Linux.
I expected such talk from a newbie whose only knowledge is most likely windows packages. From an experienced poster like you and more so a very good programmer who understands the computer inside out using Linux should be relatively easy!!!
You do realise AD was attempting to use Fedora, NOT Ubuntu?? It was not AD who threw Ubuntu into the discussion... but if you had actually read the thread all the way through, you would actually know that! And being a programmer does not automatically qualify someone as an easy cross-over for Linux, as much of the code-base and techniques are different.
So his comments didn't fit your expectations... boo-hoo for you! - get over yourself!
What many of you guys forget, is that this thread was birthed as a RANT - you all seem to be taking it as if someone insulted your mother! This is the world wide web, and even more applicable, a FORUM. People are free to voice their opinions without being others being offended because it doesn't happen to align with your own ideals.
You do realise AD was attempting to use Fedora, NOT Ubuntu?? It was not AD who threw Ubuntu into the discussion...
No. It was me.
From an expereinced poster like you and more so a very good programmer who understands the computer inside out using Linux should be relatively easy!!!
I didn't say that Linux was impossible to understand, but a lot of things are made unnecessarily difficult. If all linux programmers stuck there heads together, it might become a very userfriendly OS. But because every programmer makes his/her own little piece, the communication between the different parts of linux is below-standard. Which results in a lack of user-friendliness.
You really have to be in the zone to work with linux. Once there, it's hard to use microsoft again.
You really have to be in the zone to work with linux. Once there, it's hard to use microsoft again.
WTF.... maybe for the NOOB. You do realise that most Linux users also have to interact with Windows (or OS X) on a daily basis within the work environment as well? Just because you are incapable of interacting with dual environs, don't presume to speak for the masses... most of us are not that inept!
WTF.... maybe for the NOOB. You do realise that most Linux users also have to interact with Windows (or OS X) on a daily basis within the work environment as well? Just because you are incapable of interacting with dual environs, don't presume to speak for the masses... most of us are not that inept!
Steady, just making a simple point. There are many out there who can function perfectly well without Windows for a range of disciplines from programming, development & design, mail, security and browsing. What makes you think that I speak for the masses?
I didn't realize there was distraught fan boys, here on DW, until I read this thread.
[rant]
Its so damed confusing and difficult to use. I spent three days trying to install something on my Fedora 11 machine that would take me no more than about 10 minutes in Vista (or any other version of MS-Windows). As an example: wxWidgets. I couldn't even successfully compile their online Hello World tutorial because of uninstalled extra packages. Then after installing more packages using yum program, tried to compile Hello World and the g++ compiler couldn't find some include files. So I used find command to locate the header files and created a makefile to set -I flags for the include directories. That finally worked, but now I get trillions of undefined variables error messages. From this short experience it is no wonder that more *nix programmers don't commit suicide!As for Vista: the same Hello World tutorial compiled without errors or warnings in about 15 minutes using VC++ 2008 Express. And not much more than that using Code::Blocks.
[/rant]
For some insane reason I keep trying Linux, because I can't believe it is as bad as it really is, but it never takes me more than five minutes to find out that it is even worse than I thought it was.
I think I must be a masochist.
I much prefer to programm on linux, so much easier to set things up in my opinion, I use Ubuntu 8.10 atm and for example Ruby, i only had to go on the site to see what files it requires, typed them in the synaptic package manager search, ticked the box and click on apply and it was all done for me,
Also, Gdeb is like a windows installer imo, i download a .deb file and double click it, easy.
Linux is not easy as stated above. I would use Ubuntu for easier..use. Fedora is really geared for developers and power users. Once you get the hang of Linux you won't look back! There is so much more you can do with Linux.
Linux is not easy as stated above. I would use Ubuntu for easier..use. Fedora is really geared for developers and power users. Once you get the hang of Linux you won't look back! There is so much more you can do with Linux.
Fedora? Really? Wow...I wonder what you would consider slackware or gentoo to be...LOL
>>There is so much more you can do with Linux.
Care to elaborate? What more can you do the Linux that you can't do with MS-Windows? IMHO just the opposite is true -- I can do a lot more in MS-Windows than linux, for example, I can play movies on my DVD player in MS-Windows which I have not been able to make work on Ubuntu.
Business software: There are hundreds, maybe even thousands, of programs available for MS-Windows that are not available on linux. Just look at Programmer's Paridice magazone or online store to get the idea.
I haven't found anything I needed to do on one system that I couldn't do on the other. It's all a matter of your knowledge of the OS you use.
I like linux so much, I always install cygwin on my Windows machines. I also use system rescue CD now and then to recover data from "crashed" Windows hard drives.
I just read Linus Torvalds wikipedia article and it looks like the only Operating Systems that are true linux are controlled by an authority with Linus Torvald onboard as Linus Torvald is part of the authority for what code goes in. So basically if Linus Torvald isn't in charge then it ain't linux. I would have to do a bit of research to find out exactly what versions of linux Linus Torvald controlls.
Linus Torvalds controls ALL versions of the linux kernel. Other people build distributions on top of the linux kernel.
Care to elaborate? What more can you do the Linux that you can't do with MS-Windows?
Patch the kernel. That's not a theoretical advantage.
Microsoft issues kernel patches all the time. Next.
Microsoft issues kernel patches all the time. Next.
Um, I said you can patch the kernel, not Microsoft. Are you dense?
Well, I can patch MS-Windows too by writing device drivers and windows services. I can even hook into existing Microsoft code and change its behavior.
Patch the kernel. That's not a theoretical advantage.
it IS a theoretical advantage for 999 out of 1000 users, maybe even 9999 out of 10.000.
Those users NEVER have a need to patch the kernel (or shouldn't have).
They just want their computers to work, run the software they need to run to do their thing, and at most would like an autoupdate function to apply operating system patches for security problems for them.
Windows offers all that. Out of the box Linux offers none of that (though some distributions now offer the first and last, the majority of software most people want/need to run isn't available on Linux and no amount of fanboyizm is going to fix that (as that fanboyizm just leads to stagnation, denial there is a problem in the first place).
it IS a theoretical advantage for 999 out of 1000 users, maybe even 9999 out of 10.000.
Those users NEVER have a need to patch the kernel (or shouldn't have).
Wow jwenting, how'd you ever figure this out?
Bottom line is, it's all a matter of preference in any given situation. Some people need training wheels and others don't...it really is that simple. Whatever works for you is the best OS to use.
[rant]
Its so damed confusing and difficult to use. I spent three days trying to install something on my Fedora 11 machine that would take me no more than about 10 minutes in Vista (or any other version of MS-Windows). As an example: wxWidgets. I couldn't even successfully compile their online Hello World tutorial because of uninstalled extra packages. Then after installing more packages using yum program, tried to compile Hello World and the g++ compiler couldn't find some include files. So I used find command to locate the header files and created a makefile to set -I flags for the include directories. That finally worked, but now I get trillions of undefined variables error messages. From this short experience it is no wonder that more *nix programmers don't commit suicide!As for Vista: the same Hello World tutorial compiled without errors or warnings in about 15 minutes using VC++ 2008 Express. And not much more than that using Code::Blocks.
[/rant]
it's not good sign to hate linux.
Wow jwenting, how'd you ever figure this out?
quick guestimate of the percentage of people who actually are interested in compiling their own operating system.
In fact I may on second thought have overestimated.
For the vast majority of people, they want their operating system to be fully transparent, they don't want to think about it, let alone have to constantly tinker with it to keep their systems running.
And that includes real professionals in IT, who have better ways to spend their time than to constantly have to change configuration files and compile kernels just to get applications to actually run.
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