Questions on becoming a programmer / SEngineer

[freebanana]

If you got a programming job in the Army, what are your chance of getting a programming job that pays about 30k? 40k? 50k? or more?

If you majored in a liberal arts major and then took a few programming courses in a prestigious university like University of Michigan - Ann Arbor, what is the chance of you getting a programming / software engineering job that pays 50k? (or more)

Is it true that in programming job / SEng job you don't actually work 8 hours, but more like 6 hours and 2 hours of socializing?

If you just graduate with a liberal arts degree from a prestigious University like UMich without any programming classes, can you teach yourself programming and get certification online that you know how to program and then get hired to about 50k jobs?

[Ndoom]

I really don't know a lot about that since I'm a still a student and I live in a different country, but I hope this helps:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm

[Rashakil Fol]

If you got a programming job in the Army, what are your chance of getting a programming job that pays about 30k? 40k? 50k? or more?

Huh? Ask the Army how much they pay. If you got a programming job for 50k you'd be getting ripped off, at 30k you'd be getting really ripped off.

If you majored in a liberal arts major and then took a few programming courses in a prestigious university like University of Michigan - Ann Arbor, what is the chance of you getting a programming / software engineering job that pays 50k? (or more)

If I majored in a liberal arts major at Ann Arbor and took a few programming classes, I'd have no problem getting a development job that pays well more than 50k. But you? I have no idea. It depends on how smart you are.

Is it true that in programming job / SEng job you don't actually work 8 hours, but more like 6 hours and 2 hours of socializing?

No, it's more like you work 2 hours and spend 6 thinking about working.

If you just graduate with a liberal arts degree from a prestigious University like UMich without any programming classes, can you teach yourself programming and get certification online that you know how to program and then get hired to about 50k jobs?

Certifications are worthless and if you get them you'll only market yourself to worthless employers. Proving you know how to program is easy: write some programs. Whether you can do this depends on how smart you are.

[freebanana]

So you can just not go to University, just study programming on your own, and then get one of those 80k jobs in West Coast?

[Rashakil Fol]

It's theoretically possible. Suppose you learned programming on your own, studied some relevant computer science on your own, and then started an open source project that was awesome. You'd get hired for "an 80k" job. Heck, you'd get a lot more than 80k.

For example, suppose Slava Pestov (started jEdit when he was 14, later developed Factor) never went to college. No sane employer would turn down the opportunity to pay him $1XX,000 to develop software for them. That's because there's lots of evidence that he's an awesome developer.

But even then one might as well go to college and get a CS degree or a math degree or whatever.

[freebanana]

Well Slava Pestov is really famous for ingenuity.

What about those who are not famous...how can they prove that they deserve to get a job as well paying as 100k like CS grads from prestigious U get?

If you got a programming job in the Army, what are your chance of getting a programming job that pays about 30k? 40k? 50k? or more?

By this I meant, "If you enlist as a programmer in the military (they training you to program when you get the job), after you get out of the military, can you get as high paying job as CS grads from prestigious U? (Well of course you can but how hard is it?)

[Narue]

> What about those who are not famous...how can they prove that they deserve
> to get a job as well paying as 100k like CS grads from prestigious U get?
I'm self-taught, and not famous, yet I didn't have any trouble landing a high paying job multiple times. Assuming you've got the skills to demand top level salaries, all you need to do is get an interview.

[freebanana]

Narue, how did you self-teach yourself? How long would it take (How many hours studying per day for how many months/days) to reach a level where you can land a high paying job (and by that you mean jobs that pay like 100k+, right?)

[Narue]

>Narue, how did you self-teach yourself?
A lot of reading both books and magazines. When I got regular web access, I dug through tutorials, articles, threads, and blogs. I read and wrote a lot of code. I talked to any programmers I could and asked questions. After learning the basics, I started teaching others what I knew to solidify my own understanding.

>How long would it take (How many hours studying per day for how many months/days) to reach a level
>where you can land a high paying job (and by that you mean jobs that pay like 100k+, right?)
Time is relative. It all depends on how much effort is spent in learning and, to a lesser extent, how much talent one has. I got my first job after about two years, but it wasn't high paying. My second job was above average but also not high paying.

Both "low paying" jobs gave me the experience necessary to get my third job which was high paying, so the entire process from zero to a high paying job (and by that I mean 80k+) took approximately seven years. I've been programming as a hobby for about fifteen years, and professionally for thirteen.

In terms of effort, programming was practically an obsession until maybe 2006.

[freebanana]

So if you are going to get a high paying job in CS it takes a lot longer to get it if you try to prove your skills without CS degree then if you got a CS degree in a prestigious U?

Narue, may I ask how much your first job (low-paying) paid and your second job (middle-paying) paid?

[Narue]

So if you are going to get a high paying job in CS it takes a lot longer to get it if you try to prove your skills without CS degree then if you got a CS degree in a prestigious U?

No. The degree doesn't affect your pay rate as much as it helps with getting an interview.

Narue, may I ask how much your first job (low-paying) paid and your second job (middle-paying) paid?

~30,000 and ~45,000, respectively.

[freebanana]

No. The degree doesn't affect your pay rate as much as it helps with getting an interview.

~30,000 and ~45,000, respectively.

Does Amazon, Microsoft, and other prestigious companies only hire from prestigious Universities?

[Narue]

I've gotten a few job offers from Google, so in my experience at least one big name company doesn't care about your education if you can perform. A degree means so much less in software development than it does in other fields.

[freebanana]

Is there a program like Rikai-chan or Perapera-kun for codes so that when you place your cursor on parts of the code it pops up hovering explanation of what each parts of the code does and an example of the code? If there isn't could you make it?

[lillygil]

Narue i am interested in programing stuff and i am still learning it, can you help me out about what should i do?

[jasonslater]

I would recommend learning some software analysis and design principles, then focus on a programming language you feel comfortable with. Once you start programming, focus on re-usability, then you will be better prepared to potential employers. HTH.

[jon.kiparsky]

Narue, if you're not careful you might wind up as a mentor to young coders everywhere. :)

[logbon72]

But seriously, programming is not one of those things you do just for the pay. Interest counts more, it's the interest that keeps you going.
I believe a degree is not all that counts yet a degree in computer science + good programming skills gives you a good advantage.

[jon.kiparsky]

programming is not one of those things you do just for the pay. Interest counts more,

Sure, if you don't love it it's not worth doing. True of many things, especially true of coding.

I believe a degree is not all that counts yet a degree in computer science + good programming skills gives you a good advantage.

There are many paths, and it's important to realize that you can learn a lot on any of them - or remain ignorant on any of them. I've seen numpties with masters degrees in CS, and highly-paid software engineers who didn't know how to get the invariants out of their loops. And I've learned things from both sorts, because even if there was a lot that I knew that they didn't, when I got done feeling superior about that fact it turned out that they also had a lot of knowledge that I could use.

[freebanana]

Is there a program like Rikai-chan or Perapera-kun for codes so that when you place your cursor on parts of the code it pops up hovering explanation of what each parts of the code does and an example of the code? If there isn't could you make it?

By the way, Rikai-chan and Perapera Kun is a program where if you put a cursor on a Japanese word it will show hovering definition right on the page.

[freebanana]

Is it better to give cell phone number or home number to interviewers? My dad gave his home number so he missed lots of phone calls (but returned them back) but still got a job.

[jon.kiparsky]

He should give a good number. A good number is one that will be answered well - the person who picks up the phone is polite and doesn't make a bad impression for you. Nothing fancy, but they say "Hello" instead of "Yeah" and they offer to take a message, they check that they've got the name and number right, and they let the person calling know when they can expect a call back. The voicemail is simple and short and identifies the people who can take messages: "Thank you for calling 617-555-1212, please leave a message for Jim, Jane, or June" and it doesn't have any music or weird noises or anything like that.

It doesn't matter these days if it's a cell number or a land line or a google voice number or what it is, and nobody's going to be very bothered if they have to leave a message, as long as they know they've reached the right person and they can expect a return call.

[e-papa]

I think I'm also in the similar thing,how long will it take one to complete learning the basics of a particular programming language and be proficient.

[Rashakil Fol]

I think I'm also in the similar thing,how long will it take one to complete learning the basics of a particular programming language and be proficient.

It depends on how smart you are.

[e-papa]

well thanks