Last time this came up about Python, I upset people. Here I am again!

[rproffitt]

From https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/wupbvb/python_runtime/

As time passed it looked to me that Python evolved past a C framework.

[Dani]

Sorry, I don't know enough about Python (beyond a single programming course in college, 20 years ago) to make a judgement call. But I would definitely say that PHP is a web framework for C. (I mention PHP b/c that's what I'm knowledgeable in.)

[Reverend Jim]

Python is a C framework

Can you please explain what that statement means. It just sounds like yet another buzzword that people like to bandy around to sound like they know stuff.

In an episode of Mork and Mindy from too many years ago (sigh) David Letterman played a new-age (and obnoxious) guru who, whenever anyone disagreed with him (But what about love?) just replied "that's just a concept". In other words, an essentially meaningless word in the context.

[Dani]

I consider a framework as a set of libraries that make doing a particular something easier. I consider PHP a C framework because it's essentially a bunch of wrappers and libraries for C code that are designed for web-based programming. I can't speak for Python.

[Reverend Jim]

OK. So if by that definition Python is a framework then my reply is "so what?". And if someone were to compile all of the libraries into binaries would it then not be a framework? Is C/C++ merely a framework because it comes with many libraries. Sorry. The definition is too vague to be meaningful. And since the Python core is written in C, how much of a package must be libraries for it to be considered a framework. Would Windows or Linux be frameworks rather than operating systems?

In any case, the usefulness of a thing in no way depends on the thing's label. I guess in the end I would tell the guy in the picture to get a life.

[Dani]

In any case, the usefulness of a thing in no way depends on the thing's label. I guess in the end I would tell the guy in the picture to get a life.

The guy looks like he's having a good time enjoying the outdoors while attempting to (or perhaps, succeeding to) strike up interesting programming conversations and discussions with passersby. One could argue the people that are sitting alone, in their house, in front of their computer, posting on a forum should get a life. :-P

[Reverend Jim]

One could argue the people that are sitting alone, in their house, in front of their computer, posting on a forum should get a life. :-P

Um... Right.

Just remember, I'm 68 years old. It's either this or sit on my front steps and yell at those damn kids to get off my lawn, ;-P

[Dani]

68 year olds can still get out, sit in the sun, and talk to people. I urge you to take a folding table and chair, plant it on your front lawn, and sit out there with a sign that says, “You don’t belong on my lawn. Change my mind.” I’m excited to hear how it goes.

My point was simply that telling him to get a life implied that he was doing something other than being witty and trying to socialize and strike up conversations with other programmers.

[Reverend Jim]

Hard to tell from the picture but I got kind of a trolling vibe. If I'm going to put a folding chair and table on my front lawn I'm at least going to sell lemonade.

[Dani]

A trolling vibe?! The guy is sitting with a cup of coffee and encouraging people to walk up to him to talk.

Also, I'm 99.9999999999% sure that the sign in front is Photoshopped. No clue what the original was intended to say.

[Reverend Jim]

I hadn't considered Photoshop as a possibility.

Good-natured trolling, perhaps, but like the thread I started about Windows screen coordinates, I get the feeling that nothing is going to change his mind.

[Dani]

Good-natured trolling, perhaps

That's an oxymoron. The literal definition of trolling is "to antagonize others by deliberately posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content."

[Reverend Jim]

I disagree (you knew I would). Pastafarians, and the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster are people who do not really believe what they are espousing. They present their beliefs as a counter to religious arguments. I consider them to be good-natured trolls. They do not argue to arouse anger but to promote rational thought.

[Dani]

That’s not trolling. There are no such thing as good-natured trolls. Apparently you disagree with the Miriam-Webster dictionary. Sigh.

[Husoski]

Humor, you say? Okay, I'll keep looking then... :)

[Reverend Jim]

I think it depends on the person making the remark, the intended recipient, and the intent. Take an insult. An insult from a close friend (typically between guys) might be interpreted as a clever comment (many exchanges between me and my friend other Bob). Like perhaps a clever "yo mama" comment. The same comment from a casual friend or someone you just met could be cause for fisticuffs.

Some comics (notably Don Rickles) made a comfortable living out of insult comedy. The insults were done in fun and the audience came expecting what they got. Yet if you look up the Mirriam Webster definition of insult you get

to treat with insolence, indignity, or contempt
a gross indignity : an instance of insolent or contemptuous speech or conduct
injury to the body or one of its parts

Nothing in there about good-natured ribbing. Same thing for trolling IMO. It can be done in fun, even though it usually is not.

[Reverend Jim]

This post has no text-based content.

[Dani]

Sorry, I'm not understanding your retort. Are you agreeing with me that there's no such thing as good-natured trolls, or are you disagreeing with the Miriam-Webster dictionary?

[Reverend Jim]

I posted the cartoon because I found it amusing.

My point is that, like it or not, language evolves and dictionaries, even online ones, will only ever be a snapshot. Literally (in spite of my very best efforts) no longer means literally. Bad can mean good. And as the Chinese well know, voice intonation can change the meaning of words.

Take the word, "seriously". Said with a rising tone it questions the sanity of the person it is directed at. Said with a downward tone it is a statement that the speaker is not kidding. But Merriam Webster defines "seriously" as

1: in a sincere manner : EARNESTLY
2: to a serious extent : SEVERELY, EXTREMELY

"I beg your pardon" can be a snappish retort or a request for forgiveness, or a request to repeat the statement. Intent matters.

[Dani]

...and C is an assembly framework, right? :)

Well, it's a little different in that C was created to be a programming language, with its own syntax, structure, rules, etc.

PHP was created to be a set of wrappers around C functions and nothing beyond that. That's why PHP functions don't have any standard naming convention, sometimes invalid parameters return false, sometimes null, OOP functionality is retrofitted and not consistent, etc. Thinking about this more, I think that PHP 7/8+ have evolved into real languages in their own right. But when I think about PHP 4 and even the 5.x branch, ... Yeah.

[Dani]

Oh, and sorry for resurrecting the post. I wanted to respond to the comment Husoski made today.