your joking right?? lol C++ already kind of dead. ill laugh really hard at that. then remind you that most everything is writtin in C++, not just one webbrowser.
There is big difference between C and C++. "Most everything" is written in C.
hivework 0 Newbie Poster
Killer_Typo 82 Master Poster
There is big difference between C and C++. "Most everything" is written in C.
actually alot of things are writtin in C++ and i know the difference. to a certain degree i do know the difference, i dont claim to have all the knowledge, just enough that i do know the difference.
sameerupare 0 Newbie Poster
Hi everyone
I guess its sad but true, i have been in VC++ for past 2 years but the air around is for more simpler means of coding. Its getting tougher to find VC guys and new techies are not paying attention to it. They are more inclined to C#. Forget that Microsoft seems to be more inclined to push everyone to C# as it has removed the VC Certification Track isnt that sad ...
db0 0 Newbie Poster
Hi...
I think it's too early to say that C/C++ is dead or even dying. I'll belive in its death only after at least one OS will be written in Java 2, most of software for it will be written in Java 2 and this OS will be as popular as MS Windows or Linux today. But until all those terms aren't true I'll never belive that C/C++ is dead.
omol -2 Junior Poster
Well i think the simple fact that you can write system level programs and use asm code really brings the power to c and c++ but for aplication programming i can see why c/c++ is dying, alot of programming firms only use vb an vc because of the plain and simple fact is that you don't have to make so many calls to windows functions. But because you can program at so much lower of a leval the possabilitys are endless with c/c++ so to speak.
BountyX 7 Posting Whiz in Training
Almost everything these days are written in C++. Lets think of numerous videogames, especially Diablo II, warcraft 3, etc.
How many other languages can you do system level programming and retain portability? Not Java...
Tekmaven 258 Software Architect Team Colleague
I don't think you understand how video games are written... Those games use 3D Rendering things like OpenGL and DirectX, which is just as available on the .NET platform. In fact, Quake 2 has been ported to the .NET framework: http://www.vertigosoftware.com/Quake2.htm
Also, there is NO way to do low level programming and retain portablity. A PowerPC processor will not understand low level x86 code, no matter what language you develop in. In fact, Java and .NET is the answer to the problem of portability.
Squires 81 Junior Poster
An interesting topic. Especially the article posted by Tekmaven.
My dad is a carpenter. He always tells me stories how the younger guys go and grab the power saw to cut a single piece of wood when a handsaw would suffice.
I will admit I am a victim of this. I took a few C++ classes followed by a Java class. I remember what nightmare it was to write a multi-threaded program in C++ and how easy it was in Java. Java seems to have took the logical thinking out of dealing with threads. At least is far simplier then it was in C++.
After reading this, I can appreciate what I did in my C++ data structures class. I had to write my own searching and sorting algorithims, my own hash table, I wrote an array class that functioned like a vector. At the time I was like "why can't I just use the STL?" Now I know why.
freesoft_2000 9 Practically a Master Poster
hi everyone,
hivework is more or less right because there are really a lot of programs written in c there are not much written in c++. As for windows function calls there are a lot of other programming languages in the market that can match c++ like
tcl. Basically for squires what you are saying is that why mow the lawn with a lawn mower when you can equally as well use a scissors. Yes they both get the job done. Anyone that has tried to use the mfc classes to write a simple ftp client will understand what i mean. The mfc can be very messy and yes tekmaven is right in that most games need to rendering like OpenGL and only the interfacing part is programmed in c++ but can also been done by Java 2. One more thing is that asm is a low level language and c++ is a high level language thus mixing them both can cause your program to lose a lot of portability. Yes a lot of firms used to use vb but a lot of them fealt cheated after the release of vb.net as vb.net seems to a different language altogether.
As for bountyx's question
rapid-q, tcl, tkinter, jython, python,java2
Just naming from the top of my head
One thing to note is that change is the hardest thing to accept
Thank You
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
Asif_NSU 25 Posting Whiz
i dont think the Game Industry will let C++ die that easily. I have seen what Tekmaven™ said about games programming, but with due respect to him I have seen almost all the game studios asking for programmers who are well-experienced in c/c++, actually among all the necessary qualifications required to get the job of a games programmer "skilled in c/c++" stands at the top. I have yet to see any famous game studio looking for a full-time games programmer experienced in a programmnig language other than c/c++.
I have very little knowledge about DirectX, but as far as I know DirectX is just like a library with functions and classes and u need programming languages like C++ or Visual Basic to code according to those functions (i.e call them) to make the graphics card do ur bidding. And my speculation is that like any other program it will depend on the language it was written with as how fast it will work with the Hardware. I dont see any of Java's execution engines topping C++ in that case, since games programming now-adays strive to get the fastest possible execution and thanx only to C\C++ that's coping up with that. As far as I know unlike C++ Java doesnt even support Multiple Inheritance which I believe plays a vital role in games design.
BountyX 7 Posting Whiz in Training
I don't think you understand how video games are written...
I am qualified and I own an anti-cheat company for video games.
Those games use 3D Rendering things like OpenGL and DirectX, which is just as available on the .NET platform. In fact, Quake 2 has been ported to the .NET framework: http://www.vertigosoftware.com/Quake2.htm
Yes, I am familar with those...aimbots are common these days.
Also, there is NO way to do low level programming and retain portablity. A PowerPC processor will not understand low level x86 code, no matter what language you develop in. In fact, Java and .NET is the answer to the problem of portability.
First of all to get that nitty-gritty in C/C++ would not be possible in standard coding practice. That's what ASM is for. Which brings me to my next point. All standard C/C++ code is translated into ASM for the native OS to process. As for GUI's and other OS dependant tasks, I assure you that C/C++ has many portable API's. If you took computer science in C++ you would been taught the key advantages C++ has over it's competition, one of which is portability. Java is not answer to that problem. Any language is portable if there is an API translator readily availble. In fact some C++ API's require a run time environment simlar to a JVM.
The fact is, if there is a C/C++ compiler for the platform, then you can compile your program on it. If ou are a good programmer you won't have to change any code.
The main thing that gets me is people believe that this language dosn't offer many of the advantages Java does. This is true to a basic extent. An old language DOES offer new technology. Pick the right ones, and Java will lose all of it's appeal. It can be done the other way around, but becuase Java is newer, you're going to have to live with it's disadvantages for a while.
BTW, most games are written in C/C++ because speed and fast development are crucial. Many third party graphical design programs esily develop C/C++ code. Portbility is not an advantage in a game developed in DirectX, an exclusive Microsoft Technology.
Sorry if I sound harsh, I get flustered when people feel that C++ is code hungry. The fact is Java is bundled with API's and other goodies. C++ offers the same resources, but becuase the language is old and not run by a corperation...it's not standard practice.
my two cents, let me know what you guys think.
freesoft_2000 9 Practically a Master Poster
Hi everyone,
Yes Java 1.5 is out and yes the new look and feel is something like the mac's. I know there are still bugs in 1.5 but should be taken care of in the next release. Seriously C++ days are numbered.
Tick Tock Tick Tock
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
Narue 5,707 Bad Cop Team Colleague
>Seriously C++ days are numbered.
You're an idiot. There were people like you who ignorantly thought that COBOL's days were numbered in 1974. Lo and behold, COBOL is still used quite a bit 30 years later. So, you're an idiot, and I won't waste my time explaining why since you're clearly not intelligent enough to understand.
freesoft_2000 9 Practically a Master Poster
Hi everyone,
Narue you said "COBOL is still used quite a bit 30 years later"
Are you living on the MOON? At least the rest of the other guys that post in this thread say something logic.
Hey man what's with the name calling??
From your post i think you sound quite scared. I think i know why you sound scared, let me guess the only programming language you know is C/C++. Am i right?
From your post i also seem to get that you believe if something works good previously why bother to upgrade to something better.
It's like saying why do i need to drive to work when i can ride a horse to work
Sounds stupid - Well that's your explanation
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
Narue 5,707 Bad Cop Team Colleague
Either you're a troll, or you're a braindead Java advocate. Either way, I'm not going to waste my time with you. So, you believe what you want to, and I'll continue to use whatever tool is best for the job.
1o0oBhP 4 Posting Pro in Training
C++ is dying a slow death
ahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha yeah right. From experience I have found that its only rival is really VB .NET and equivalent for making GUIs. Other than that is it a middle/low level language with inline ASM support and its EASY to learn and the syntax is EASY to read, not like many other languages i have seen. And please dont associate the reason that MFC is a pain in the ass to c++, thats microsoft's fault and its you dont HAVE to use it just because you have MSVC++ - I use DevC++, gets the job done (NO MFC or any other to get in the way). Someone said about only knowing one mainstream application to use C++, have you NEVER played a game in your life? ;) if you want some examples think quake (c, djgpp) quake 2, HL, HL mods, Doom, Doom II Unreal Tornament..... And what is the scripting like for these games? why, they based it on c/c++ of course (ref: quake c)!
Now im NOT saying it is immortal as C# has been released (im classing it with c/c++/c#) and there are also many other new alternative languages for different software creations, but all in all it IS an industry standard and IS exceptionally useful and powerful and has millions of users worldwide. Just look at this site! people are joining all the time and still wanting to learn.
C/C++ -> Its NOT over yet :)
vegaseat 1,735 DaniWeb's Hypocrite Team Colleague
Hi everyone,
Narue you said "COBOL is still used quite a bit 30 years later"
Are you living on the MOON? At least the rest of the other guys that post in this thread say something logic.Hey man what's with the name calling??
From your post i think you sound quite scared. I think i know why you sound scared, let me guess the only programming language you know is C/C++. Am i right?
From your post i also seem to get that you believe if something works good previously why bother to upgrade to something better.
It's like saying why do i need to drive to work when i can ride a horse to work
Sounds stupid - Well that's your explanation
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
I hate to waste any time with folks like you. You sound like a person that has never written any code at all, maybe read some books on the subject at best!
Check out DaniWeb's code snippets under java, and you will find a number of very eloquent java code examples written by Narue!!!
LubLub 0 Newbie Poster
Just some quick numbers from Google:
Results 1 - 10 of about 2,430,000 for Java Technology
Results 1 - 10 of about 9,840,000 for c/c++
Results 1 - 10 of about 11,100,000 for c#
Results 1 - 10 of about 28,800,000 for c++
... not a true indication of use/popularity, but it does serve. The Java numbers are a bit skewed. I didn't want "...east of Krakatowa".
This link http://www.research.att.com/~bs/applications.html, from Bjarne Stroustrup's homepage, really shows the broad nature of the use and support of the c++ langauge.
And one last pair of numbers:
C/C++ threads at Daniweb: 1,620
Java threads: 665
Dead really doesn't do the langauge justice.
freesoft_2000 9 Practically a Master Poster
Hi everyone,
My dear friends read the below thread.
http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-01-2000/jw-01-emergtech.html
And this thread(Java for Games)
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jeffpk/archive/2004/04/faster_better_c.html
Before i leave you guys to insult me again let me leave you with a quote
Julius Caesar said to Brutus
"People should know when they have been conquered"
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
Narue 5,707 Bad Cop Team Colleague
Your inconclusive links that completely miss the point have changed my mind! I'm now a devout Java user who will never turn to other languages even if they appear better at first glance or are in a different problem domain than Java! All bow before Richard West for he is a genius!
Yours Sincerely
Someone with an open mind.
Asnwer me this. Java may be everyone's choice for writing new code. But what are we going to do with the hundreds of millions of lines of code that aren't Java? Are we going to convert it to Java just because it may be a better language? Because it may be simpler? Because it has an overwhelming set of "standard" libraries?
What about systems programming? Do you have a link that shows Java to be superior to C for writing an operating system efficiently? I don't see Sun writing Solaris in Java, do you?
Tell me, do you have a toolbox with nothing but a hammer because a hammer can "fix" any problem? I have nothing against Java, but I believe strongly that no language will solve all of your problems, simple things usually aren't, OOP is totally overrated and abused, and people who advocate any one language or methodology are closed minded fools.
Now, tell me where I'm wrong. Of course, I don't expect you to see the light simply because you're too entrenched in your own petty likes and dislikes to see the bigger picture. I don't expect you to see this post as anything but an insult to you personally and Java as a whole. I don't expect you to see anything but what you want to see, and that's okay. But if you want to advocate Java, go to the Java forum.
C++ isn't going anywhere, C isn't going anywhere, and Java isn't going anywhere. You may not like it, but that's reality. Deal with it.
freesoft_2000 9 Practically a Master Poster
Hi everyone
Narue you said "What about systems programming? Do you have a link that shows Java to be superior to C for writing an operating system efficiently? I don't see Sun writing Solaris in Java, do you?"
Now see the below thread
http://cjos.sourceforge.net/archive/index.html
I only put up one link here but if you want you can google for Java Operating Systems and find hundreds of different variations of Java Operating Systems.
Writing a kernel for an operating system using C is really hard and takes up too much time but the best language to use for writing a kernel is assembly language. Thus people usually write the kernels in assembly and then create the over lying operating system with all the gui in Java or any other suitable language
You must know that i mention only C/C++ and not other languages as there are still no better alternatives to them like basic, tcl, python and a lot of other really good programming languages
Narue you also said "All bow before Richard West for he is a genius!"
Well if you must don't let me stop you
Let me leave you with a quote
"Empires take generations to build but take only a day to fall"
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
Narue 5,707 Bad Cop Team Colleague
>Now see the below thread
I won't accept that. Show me an existing and popular operating system written completely in Java except for parts that absolutely cannot be.
>Let me leave you with a quote
My eyes are just fine, you don't need to use bold and a huge font. I also don't care about your inappropriate quotes. Give me facts, not opinions, or I'll shrug you off as yet another moron who doesn't have a strong grasp of reality.
But you can't. All you can do is tell me what you think, or post links to threads that aren't nearly as deadset on the abolition of all languages not Java. Tell me, have you read those links in detail? One you used to prove that C++ is on the way out was merely talking about Java being here to stay. That's quite a difference, and it shows that the authors are better informed than you are.
1o0oBhP 4 Posting Pro in Training
Writing a kernel for an operating system using C is really hard and takes up too much time but the best language to use for writing a kernel is assembly language. Thus people usually write the kernels in assembly and then create the over lying operating system with all the gui in Java or any other suitable language
I must say that when people talk about JAVA they talk about ease! -> c++ is perhaps not as easy, but thats beside the point!!!! c++ is MUCH more powerful - and people who cannot be bothered to go ahead and learn the advanced coding methods ALWAYS see other 'easy' languages as 'better', which seems to be the issue here! JAVA might be easier but its no where near as useful. You have to wonder why ID and Valve didnt turn to one of the many "Hey-make-a-game-in-5-minutes-even-with-3d!" programs on the internet to make their latest creations......
jwenting 1,889 duckman Team Colleague
You have to wonder why ID and Valve didnt turn to one of the many "Hey-make-a-game-in-5-minutes-even-with-3d!" programs on the internet to make their latest creations......
They did. It took them 3 years to write that program, then 5 minutes to create the game using it ;)
There's use for Java and C++ both, there's even use for Cobol and PL/1.
Neither is perfect, neither is omnipotent.
Personally I favour Java for most things but when you really need to get down to the hardware Java gives up by design.
Any library that claims to allow direct hardware access is in fact going through a JNI interface which plugs into a C or C++ (usually) library to do the actual interfacing.
Where Java is particularly strong is networking, something the language was designed to be used for.
freesoft_2000 9 Practically a Master Poster
Hi everyone,
I tend to agree with jwenting on most points except that for myself if i need to do hardware programming, i usually use assembly or pascal or sometimes c language.
1o0oBhP you said "From experience I have found that its only rival is really VB .NET"
You are saying that VB.NET is a competitor to C/C++??
Are you crazy? I think you need more exposure or even more experience
1o0oBhP you also said "JAVA might be easier but its no where near as useful"
You must really be out of your mind
Narue you said "existing and popular" what has that got to do with anything expecially the popular part. There are many existing java Operating Systems in the works all you have to do is to google for them.
As for popularity it depends on individuality.
Narue you also said "Show me an existing and popular operating system written
completely in Java"
Which part of written in 100% pure Java you don't understand
I wonder where tekmaven is? He usually has a lot of interesting things to say on this topic
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
vegaseat 1,735 DaniWeb's Hypocrite Team Colleague
I think English is the best language and all other countries should switch to this language!?!?
I spilled my tea the other day, and the tea leaves told me that F# is the computer language of the future!
jwenting 1,889 duckman Team Colleague
hey, so did my tarot cards just last week :)
Narue 5,707 Bad Cop Team Colleague
>what has that got to do with anything expecially the popular part
Are you daft? Existing means that you can prove it's been done and popular means you can prove that the result is worth a damn. Since you can't seem to link me to anything conclusive, your arguments are falling on deaf ears.
>Which part of written in 100% pure Java you don't understand
It's impossible to write an operating system completely in Java. If you knew half of what you pretend to then you would realize this.
>He usually has a lot of interesting things to say on this topic
I've concluded that you're a troll, and you've been plonked. Have a nice life.
jwenting 1,889 duckman Team Colleague
>Which part of written in 100% pure Java you don't understand
It's impossible to write an operating system completely in Java. If you knew half of what you pretend to then you would realize this.
Actually it's not theoretically impossible. If you were to provide a JVM implementation in hardware the entire OS COULD be written in Java.
This was the idea behind JavaCard which is in active use as well as JavaOS which never left the prototype stage.
In fact, device control through hardware implementations of a JVM was one of the original ideas when creating the language and runtime environment (though I admit it wasn't all the success Sun thought it would turn out to be in that line of business).
1o0oBhP 4 Posting Pro in Training
ok freesoft go and write a GUI in (ANSI)c++ then try it in VB.NET: you will see what I am getting at....
Now to make a point clear there ARE uses for every language, but when people talk about JAVA replacing C++ its crazy. It is not enough to kill C++ out-right. They CAN exist together but IMHO when i program its 90% going to be C++ for the language of choice. Like someone said before where they refered to People using a hammer to fix everything being like someone ranting about JAVA superiority: JAVA IS a maybe a socket set, useful to a point, but c++ is like a whole toolbox and a garage to store it all in - it can do a lot of tricks that will garuntee its longevity
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