Hi,
As most of you are IT profs probably some of you have access to ISO norms... I'm looking for one particular definition which should be contained in ISO 8000-102:2009 it is definition of data quality... As I need only that one info for my master thesis I'm not willing for paying of the whole doc especially that it is very expensive relative to my earnings... :( so if you've got access to it please copy and paste that one def...
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
jephthah commented: how's it feel to be so full of [FAIL] +0
jwenting 1,889 duckman Team Colleague
no, noone should plagiarise that document for you and commit intellectual property theft in the process.
If it's really for your "master's thesis" you should know you're not supposed to commit plagiarism and IP theft and that you're not supposed to do it.
You would also have a research budget available to you from which to draw funding, and almost certainly a university library containing documents like the one you're looking for.
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
1. as far as I know (at least according to Polish law) a plagiarism is use or use after some slight changes of other person's product (it is thought, code, photo etc.) AS ONE'S OWN meaning WITHOUT NAMING THE AUTHOR WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS NOT THE CASE... to have well done state of the art I want to cite (so WITH MARKING THE SOURCE), in addition to other definitions, the norm... and yes I know that having other sources cited, so having other definitions, I not probably need that one too... but I'm rather meticulous person and when I do something I do what I can to do that right, accurately etc. and obviously the ISO norms are important and can give some more insight...
2.
almost certainly a university library containing documents like the one you're looking for
<rotfl> I'm not sure where are you come from but guess not from Poland... In my university we've got NO ACCESS to such databases as ACM, IEEE... lately and probably only till the end of this semester we've got partial access on ONLY ONE POSITION IN THE LIBRARY (so to one person at the moment) to springer link... with norms it is even bigger problems as I'm not from technician university... and the only technician university in my city has only partial access to norms and that one is not available... so not to write even more on the subject to get that doc I will have to pay for that or find other library with access... but in Poland it can be a problem... may be in library in the capital I would find something like that but as even closer I've got to Germany...
3. small calculation... that document costs 38CHF which is about 110 zlotys (polish currency) taking into consideration that on average a Pole gain about 2000 per month (a lot of people even less) it is a lot for me... + take into consideration that I've already payed a lot of money for other docs to my master thesis as not all the author were so kind to send me the copy of their papers...
summarizing life can be cruel... ;(
jwenting 1,889 duckman Team Colleague
no, plagiarism is me handing you part of a text created by someone else.
It's also intellectual property theft.
Go buy your copy, see it as an investment in your future.
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
it depends on how you will do that... straight copy of a text or part of it may be in some cases treated as plagiarism (NOT ALL)... but saying that "according to the norm X the concept Y is defined as Z" (what I need) is NOT treated as intellectual property theft..... according to what you're saying a lot of forums should be closed and their admins and moderators sued for intellectual property theft as on the domain specific forums it is normal that explaining somebody a concept you refer to the authorities in the field (f. ex. saying that for X, who's definitely the guru in Y, the concept Z is treated as D)... according to what you're saying wikipedia should be closed too... and yeap... doing something similarly to what was previously done/showed on MSDN is definitely a plagiarism too... so if you're programmer find yourself another way to open the file because just changing the name of the file in statement presented first on MSDN is plagiarism too...
so summarizing before saying something check the binding law first... and remember the law can NOT always be consistent with what you're thinking...
btw I would buy it if I could afford it... you can say that not eating for a couple of days to invest in my future is still good for me and even better for my figure... but... I will not fast for a couple of days - I'm not as big enthusiast of knowledge... Maslow theory is still effective in my case... ;-P
jephthah 1,888 Posting Maven
dude, you suck.
seriously, coming in here trying to wheedle your way into getting someone to steal the property of someone else, and then give it to you, just so you can continue to weasel your way to a dubious "masters degree" ?
WTF ever. I say, you work for some crappy software consulting gig, and they want you to steal a copy of it because they don't want to pay for it.
really, now go sit somewhere quiet and think about your life for a while.
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
1. ok... may be my point of view is wrong... but if so please explain me in which way stating that according to source X the concept Y is Z is intellectual property theft or plagiarism... for me it is just a citation... but may be I'm wrong - if so explain me how it works and refer to appropriate sources supporting your point of view... and explain why in such cases Wikipedia and similar sites can function... and if so why are you tolerate giving thorough, theoretical explanations to forum questions - those explanations actually are based on some books or arts and often they are not even acknowledged...
2. probably in most countries degree thesis must contain the SOTA (state of the art) part... and how can I give state of the art part without referring to other sources, to authors that are experts in the field? you probably too have written a degree thesis or something like that... if so you had to have some references in it...
3.
I say, you work for some crappy software consulting gig, and they want you to steal a copy of it because they don't want to pay for it.
no... I'm unfortunally a student who want to have well done SOTA part of thesis to have it well marked (or graded) but cannot afford to buy all the articles, norms etc. that can be useful...
WaltP 2,905 Posting Sage w/ dash of thyme Team Colleague
no, plagiarism is me handing you part of a text created by someone else.
No, plagiarism is you USING the document as your own. Theft is you giving something you don't own to someone else -- sort of. It's definitely not plagiarism.
jephthah 1,888 Posting Maven
no... I'm a student
if you're a masters candidate, then i think it's about time you get familiar with your university's library.
i can't imagine a university, even in a Second World country, that is unable or unwilling to make journals and standards documents accessible to students.
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
No, plagiarism is you USING the document as your own. Theft is you giving something you don't own to someone else -- sort of. It's definitely not plagiarism.
Thank you...
+ according to Polish law (I can not say how it is regulated in other countries) saying in other word, naming the source (sometimes even with exact words - it depends - there's more regulations), what was stated in a book, art etc. is not theft that's why initiatives like wikipedia can function...
i can't imagine a university, even in a Second World country, that is unable or unwilling to make journals and standards documents accessible to students.
You cannot? come to Poland... the only university which have access to norms in my city has only partial access and that particular norm is not available (and I study in one of the biggest university cities)...
+ not being sarcastic because it is sad and difficult for us (I just state the fact)... in most countries it will be unimaginable to put in the same ONE plane the most important persons in the country... and look what happened in Poland (if you do not know what I refer to, find something about recent death of Polish president, 6 most important generals etc. like f.ex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash#Notable_passengers
, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casualties_of_the_2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash)
jephthah 1,888 Posting Maven
in most countries it will be unimaginable to put in the same ONE plane the most important persons in the country...
yes, that was terrible. condolences. :(
still, as tragic as it was, the same could have theoretically happened in America. the President and First Lady, some senior military and a handful of congressmen could all be on Air Force One. It wouldn't have incapacitated the government over here any more than it did for you there.
the end result is your tragedy was caused by human factors. We like to think our pilots are more competent and less likely to make that error, but on a bad day it could have happened to us.
jwenting 1,889 duckman Team Colleague
No, plagiarism is you USING the document as your own. Theft is you giving something you don't own to someone else -- sort of. It's definitely not plagiarism.
No, he wants me to plagiarise it by handing him part of the text to which he no doubt won't give attribution.
He assumes I'm going to steal that text for him so he doesn't have to.
jephthah 1,888 Posting Maven
walt is right. you are confusing plagiarism with theft.
whether he will, at some point the future, properly attribute the source in his paper... that is both unknown and irrelevant.
what he wants, right now in the present, is for someone to violate copyright law and give him for free what anyone else would have to pay for.
IANAL, but i'm pretty certain that's a form of theft. conspiracy to commit theft, anyhow.
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
could you please use plain, "official english"... IANAL - what does it mean? it is sometimes difficult to understand such things for non-english speakers...
all of the people taking part in this discussion think that providing me with the information how data quality is defined in the ISO norm is a crime but no one actually is willing to explain me how... even though I kindly asked you for the explanation... I'm pretty sure that stating "according to norm the concept X is Y and Z" doing that with one's own word is NOT A THEFT - only reference or citation or sth like that... from mine point of view in the same way wikipedia works... wikipedia function in a lot of countries... also in USA where the servers of that forum are probably located... and you try to tell me that for example me going to wikipedia and writing in the article that "according to the source X the concept Y is defined as Z" is crime and intellectual property theft... I have doubts in here (but as I stated earlier asking for explanation I am not from legal field so I CAN BE WRONG and it can be differently treated in USA and other countries)... so what I think is that you actually took for granted that I am a consultant or an IT firm which just do not want to pay for that or a very, very lazy student who is just too lazy to go to the library and check... so you entertain yourself by offending and abusing me... but you do not taking into consideration that actually on the other side can be a person who is telling the truth... so...
1. I give jwenting a "minus" because of:
No, he wants me to plagiarise it by handing him part of the text to which he no doubt won't give attribution.
He assumes I'm going to steal that text for him so he doesn't have to.
writing that YOU actually COMMITED A CRIME... at least according to my law and I am pretty sure that in USA abusing somebody in the public and suggestion that a person is offender or a criminal without any proof for that is a crime too... you could say that from your point of view what I am asking for is illegal or that you do not believe me and have serious concerns if I would give the reference in my paper to the source so you will not, because of that, provide me with the information I asked for... I would be ok with that... as you never know who is on the other side... and certainly I would not push you to commit a crime if it is a crime in your country... but from my point of view you think you are cool by abusing somebody...
+ you accusing me of being pretty stupid and plagiarism the thing that would be most likely detected by the committee (every thesis is checked in my country by special system for plagiarism + proffessors who work in the field for years without any doubt would detect something like that)... if commit a crime only in the undetectable way (but as that's probably not possible in our time so in the way very difficult to detect)...
2. I wait for official apology...
i can't imagine a university, even in a Second World country, that is unable or unwilling to make journals and standards documents accessible to students
enlarge your horizons... I forgot to write that most univ in my country are unable to get license for the software they teach how to use for they students + software in here has the same prices as in USA so it is unaffordable for most of the students to buy it (the minimal wage is right now about 433$ and as I checked f.ex. photoshop costs from 1500€) + in most univs you cannot get access to computers with software after courses... there is only no problem with some Microsoft products thanks to MSDNAA as they realized that's better to educate future stuff and invest in that... not so nice right... Poland is only great place to visit for you - cheap, a lot to visit, great food etc.
btw I'm a GIRL... definitly... :-D
jwenting 1,889 duckman Team Colleague
They can get licenses, if they wanted to bother.
But most of your part of the world is awash with your attitude that you shouldn't have to pay for things so they use all pirated software and stolen documents.
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
accusing once again... without taking any effort to check or read what I stated... nice & classy...
1. licenses for universities for educational purposes are payed too but in different rate (they are cheaper I guess)... and to give students the possibility to use software at homes is payed in other way... not every company is willing to organize something like MSDN AA... for example in my roommate university they start teaching programming from Pascal... have licences for Delphi for labs but despite negotiations with the company they did not get licenses for students for use at homes - in the way is for example available with MSDN AA... many other companies are not willing too to invest in future stuff or customers or in education... and some things we cannot afford...
2. I try not to use any software that I do not license for... most of the software I need I have got from MSDN AA, I tried Corel draw with trial version but right now I'm perfectly happy with inkscape which is free, instead of Microsoft Office use Led (Latex) or Open Office and to open ".doc" documents I use google aps, electronic dictionaries I've managed to get from some Personal Development Programs organized by European Union (form of investment in human capital programs)... summarizing I make the effort to find open source products or get the license in some way or use trial versions... so once again you abuse me without any proof...
3. I do not think that for us should be no fees... the only think I am saying that despite what you think a lot of software firms etc. are not willing to cooperate in any way like for example Microsoft do with MSDN AA... that is the myth... (so even if somebody is willing to learn there is a problem because even working in all free time we normally cannot afford to pay fee like you in states...) if they want to cooperate they can organize similar things to MSDN AA... or give special versions for different parts of world - so something similar to what ACM have done... ACM offer special fees for profs and students... they also differenciate fees for different parts of world and for different countries... that is actually great... thanks to that I could normally afford to buy membership and use digital library and get a lot of articles to refer to in my thesis...
so basically don't say that everything is affordable for us we just have to make some effort and ask for that... because it is NOT true... some very big companies, leaders in the field, sometimes do not want to cooperate... and they have right for that... but don't say that we do not actually get any effort... we cannot force anybody to cooperate...
4. I do not use any stolen documents in thesis... that is another accusation... I asked for telling me what is inside one document I do not have access for... and I believed that it is legal... because sites like wikipedia exist... you are not willing to give me any explanation in which way telling me what is inside a document is different from what is done on wikipedia (is that because I asked for? - I'm pretty sure there you can give suggestions what can be useful and give more insight to the subject too) and would be crime... and obviously you do not stop abusing me which is a real crime... you go even farther - you start actually abusing in some way my country and some other countries...
You behave like a person who is just perfect in every way and all the others are bad, hopeless or sth like that... I stated that I see it legal but I can be wrong (so asked for explanation) and if so I would apologize without anybody pointing me that I should do that... you answered not with explanation but with abusing me... so you answered with crime and don't even want to apologize for that... you really think you are so PERFECT? and that abusing somebody is a perfect way to respond in such situation? or may be I am a level below a person so according to the definition you do not abusing me?
btw people contributing to wikipedia, even if they commit some kind of crime, just do the great job...
btw2 jwenting if you will stop abusing others and start explaining it would be great...
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
ok... as you were not willing or not able to give me any explanation for the questions I posed and I was very, very curious how it is treated I contacted my friend who is a lawyer... he is not the specialist from the field of penal law but in Poland you must have the bases of all the fields if you want to pass the exam... and the case is a little bit more tricky than I thought... according to our law, it is subjective... meaning it depends on the situation how it would be treated... more or less it is treated like that = main conclusions on examples (we talked about that for a couple of hours so those are really main conclusions):
1. if company A would ask a company B to provide it with the text or part of the text of the norm or other document because they don't want to pay for that, and both parties would know about who is who etc. it would be treated as a nice workaround for actual crime and treated/judged as it... so it would be intellectual property crime for both parties... (that is the worst case because both parties act in bad faith...)
2. if anybody would copy or provide somehow (not give as a donation or gift etc.) the whole text to somebody else in most cases it would be treated as a workaround too... in most cases because imagine you teach somebody lyrics of some radio hit and you are singing then the song in many different occasions (you do not use it any commercial way = not for profit) - this is not an intellectual property theft in my country... but for example creating a site with translations of songs or subtitles to films (even if DVD was not available in your language and you translated that, synchronized with movie and only the effect of your work made available on the site) it would be definitely intellectual property theft... so it depends on situation...
3. if it comes to parts of the text it is even more complicated... if you've got a blog and somebody would ask you "what a character X told to character Y in the end of the movie Z" and you would respond something like that "yes, yes I remember... that was good... " and cite a couple of phrases... it would not be an intellectual property theft... but if somebody ask you if you do remember that beautiful poem of X and you would make on your blog available in citation the big part of that in some cases it could be considered/treated as IP theft...
4. sites like wikipedia can exist as they usually do not give the whole citations... they just explain the concepts in their own words, giving the references to the sources... that is sharing knowledge you have/possess... you can share your knowledge... in that way... so talking/writing about something you know, even if you gained your knowledge from sources that are not available to everybody, is obviously NOT a crime... but you have to add that you know that from another source... because... creating a site, on the other hand, and stating there that you actually invented light bulb would be amusing or ridiculous... but imagine you've just read an article of little-known author who comes from even less known country and you've found there a proof to some mathematical problem... you assume nobody knows the author, you are a well-known mathematician so you put it on your site and claim that you have done it by yourself - it would be a crime...
5. getting back for our situation, in short, if I am really a student and you will in your own words tell me what is inside a doc it should be treated like sharing knowledge... you gained some knowledge from the document, nobody can actually force you not to talk about that... plus the license certainly, not forbid to talk about that with other people... so it is not in any part the secret and as far as you refer to the source you can freely talk about... unless it is not stated in the license that after buying it is part of a secret... (in our country, more or less, until the statement is not against the law you can put whatever statement you want in the agreement... so you can even bind another party if you want to keep something a secret)
if I am not a student but a company which in the insidious/artful way want to get access to knowledge for which normally you have to pay for it can in some cases be treated as IP theft for me and only for me... but it would be very difficult to prove and most probably in my country it would end with limitation period... once again if it comes to the party providing the knowledge of what is inside the document it would be most probably treated as sharing knowledge (most probably because somebody can try to prove that you could actually know that I was not who I was stating that I was and you provided me with that knowledge in bad faith)...
those are the most important things about intellectual property theft in my country... it is probably more or less in the same regulated in the whole European Union... it would be nice if somebody would provide some insight about how it is treated in states as I guess you are located in states...
if it comes to what jwenting did, according to my friend, it is definitely a crime... and I can sue you... in that way I would actually for sure get what I want - because for that type of crime most likely I would get some money compensation and could afford to buy that norm...
I do NOT, even though I know that I can, sue you because I do not have time for that, I do not think it is worth it... but it would be nice if you will actually apologize in the public... you can do that also in conditional form, it is "if you really are who you claim you are... and you really act in good faith..." ... I would be ok with that too...
For moderators (if you do what you are supposed to do and read that): I know that jwenting is your team colleague but you should not tolerate something like that... + I kindly ask to remove the tag gimmetehjournalz, as it was not what I meant to be done when I posted the question - I treat it as knowledge sharing... in my country it is not treated as IP theft if in yours it is, I would apologize, I acted in good faith and did not want anybody to commit a crime for me or something like that...
Szpilona 18 Light Poster
After making some more research on the subject I actually found freely available articles of experts in the field (people working with those norms)... Inside of them you can find not only the explanation of the concepts but also citations of the norm... for example:
http://www.ewsolutions.com/resource-center/rwds_folder/rwds-archives/issue.2009-10-12.0790666855/document.2009-10-12.3367922336/view?searchterm=ISO%208000%20data%20quality
as you can find quite a lot of such articles in the Internet and some of the authors actually come from USA I assume what was discussed in this thread is not intellectual property theft also in USA...
so the thread is solved... :-)
jephthah commented: yawn. +0
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