Remembering Margret Thatcher

[Ancient Dragon]

I just found out on CNN that Old Ironpants has died at age of 87. RIP dear dear lady. No matter what your politics are she made a profound difference in he world.

[<M/>]

It is unfortunate to lose someone, but it is even greater when someone like her contributes greatly in her life making her a historical icon.

[GrimJack]

Let's see... profound difference in the world - was losing politically so she started a war with Argentina over some island they took back in 1812 after Argentina kicked their asses out - check. Killed off the milk program for school lunches, she abolished the minimum national nutrition standards then passed regulations that required schools to accept the cheapest food available meaning fried everything, nothing fresh and then she cut thousands of children off the free school lunch program. She sold off all the school fields (ie playgrounds) - it wasn't until 1999 that there was semblance of nutritional balance put back into the school lunch programs

She probably ruined the health of 2 generations of poor children so that she could cut government spending.

but I digress - I think I might hate her what she did to the UK as much as I hate Reagan and what he did to the US.

[LastMitch]

No matter what your politics are she made a profound difference in he world.

Yes she did.

It was really hard for most women to accept what she accomplish or did.

She was a Rationalist.

[<M/>]

@GrimJack,

Well, like i said, she contributed to history... but she contributed negatively.

Killed off the milk program for school lunches, she abolished the minimum national nutrition standards then passed regulations that required schools to accept the cheapest food available meaning fried everything, nothing fresh and then she cut thousands of children off the free school lunch program. She sold off all the school fields (ie playgrounds) - it wasn't until 1999 that there was semblance of nutritional balance put back into the school lunch programs

I guess she is a very stubborn and selfesh person, don't you say?

[<M/>]

An article on CNN wrote about her being either a villain or a hero... i say villain.

Here is the article:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/08/world/europe/twitter-reaction-thatcher-death/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

[TonyG_cyprus]

For every negative, Grimjack, there is a positive, and the same can be said of politicians the world over. Truth is, she took a country that was heading into a major depression, being in the stranglehold of short-sighted gimme,gimme,gimme unionists like Arthur Scargill, and turned it around. Yes some people got hurt, but the majority profited whilst hypocritically complaining about her politics.

[GrimJack]

TonyG -"stranglehold of short-sighted gimme,gimme,gimme unionists" and privatized the country, turning it over to the ever-so-nice corporate goons who aren't in the least short-sighted. Fortunately, the unionists are still there and will dance and piss on her grave.

Let's see - she trained the Khmer Rouge goons in the art of murder and mayhem - even though she know of Pol Pot's atrocities;

between 1985 and 1989, the Special Air Service (SAS) ran a series of training camps for Khmer Rouge allies in Thailand close to the Cambodian border and created a 'sabotage battalion' of 250 experts in explosives and ambushes. Intelligence experts in Singapore also ran training courses,

she called Nelson Mandella a terrorist and fully supported the South African Apartheid

On a different not - I really like your avatar (and the vent. who does that dummy) - my alter-ego on most other sites is Grumpy Old Man and your avatar personifies him/me

[TonyG_cyprus]

I'm going to quit here, not because I don't have any argument, but precisely because I do, and not only is this not the place for a political discussion/argument, but I really am too long in the tooth to be bothered with all that now. One of the reasons I left the UK was to get away from it. And yes, I like my avatar too, scary thing is, I've been told it's quite a good likeness!

[stultuske]

true, her politics caused trouble for a lot of people, but ... then again ....
no offence, but look around. in the UK there's this one workless guy, has 17 kids with about as many (15) different women, and he lives on child support. now, lately, the guy has murdered (or attempted) to murder some other guy while he was drunk.

all I need to do is open up a newspaper here, look at the "international" section, and every few weeks (months tops) there's yet another English 12 year old about to give birth, and to recieve full benefits, then having their parents say that their 11/12 year olds will be "wonderfull parents, and we are sure they will do the right thing".

honestly, I wonder whether that situation would also be the same if 'Iron Maggie' would still be dealing the cards. for all the bad decisions she's taken, there's one thing you must give her: she was never afraid to step on some toes, and that is something the current politicians should learn as well. they're all so afraid to appear in an article where they are not described as "the perfect saviour for the nation". (to be correct, that is not restricted to the UK. same goes here, of course)

[Reverend Jim]

honestly, I wonder whether that situation would also be the same if 'Iron Maggie' would still be dealing the cards

You mean like in the US where Republicans would like to see all sex education removed from the schools and birth control made unavailable to teens - a policy which has been proven to do nothing mut drastically increase teen pregnancy and the spread of STDs? Thatcher was Republican to the core.

[Reverend Jim]

I'm going to quit here, not because I don't have any argument, but precisely because I do

Spoken like someone who has no valid counter argument but wants to appear like he does.

not only is this not the place for a political discussion/argument

You'd prefer endless "what is your favourite <noun>" discussions to intelligent discourse?

[happygeek]

Normally I wouldn't be happy about a frail 87 year old losing her life, but I will make an exception for Thatcher. There have actually been street parties here in the North of England yesterday, people are so happy that the old witch has finally died. Let's not forget that she called Nelson Mandela a terrorist, supported the aparthied regime in South Africa, was a friend of General Pinochet who killed thousands in Chile and, well, the list goes on. And that's without even starting on the misery she brought to the UK...

[Agilemind]

all I need to do is open up a newspaper here, look at the "international" section, and every few weeks (months tops) there's yet another English 12 year old about to give birth, and to recieve full benefits, then having their parents say that their 11/12 year olds will be "wonderfull parents, and we are sure they will do the right thing".

honestly, I wonder whether that situation would also be the same if 'Iron Maggie' would still be dealing the cards. for all the bad decisions she's taken, there's one thing you must give her: she was never afraid to step on some toes, and that is something the current politicians should learn as well. they're all so afraid to appear in an article where they are not described as "the perfect saviour for the nation". (to be correct, that is not restricted to the UK. same goes here, of course)

Absolutely it would, infact probably a lot of it is attributable to Thatcher because there is a clear correlation between economic inequality, poor sex-ed, and large families & teen-mothers, and one of the biggest effects Thatcher had was increases inequality and weaken the schools.

The USA & UK the 1st and 3rd most unequal Western countries (thanks to Reagan and Thatcher) have some of the highest birth rates and incidence of teen-motherhood. And despite the child benefits in the UK, it has the worse child welfare of all the developed countries.

[stultuske]

still, you can't admit that her (Reagan, and yes, either Bush junior's) leadership has awoken.

there was a time when all would hail the "great leader", no matter what they did. remember the ancient Rome, or a bit closer to home, that little angry man in Germany? some would grow malcontent after a period of years, but in current days, people actually tend to think about who's comming into power, how they do it and what the consequences would/will be. they grow an opinion, and they won't be silenced anymore.

sure, I don't assume I know as much of the UK's (past) politics then the people who live there themselves, so my apologies for anyone who fellt insulted or attacked by my previous post, but, even though I can't but admire certain aspects of how she came to rule, and how she ruled (and no, I don't mean WHAT. I do not support appartheid, nor do I feel the need for one country to keep another as it's "territory" by means of arms, for instance) but for those days, a 'simple' grocer's daughter to become one of the most influential people around the globe, and to remain that for over ten years...

I admire the way she couldn't be "corrupted" from her path (which is not the same as me claiming I would actually agree with that path entirely, or even mostly). if I look at the politicians over here .... all fire, all passion, untill just a few persons complain, and they shift course, afraid to loose voters and to loose their high paying job, that is more what I was trying to say. she was head-strong (Iron Lady indeed) and, expect for her last years, I think a lot 'll remember her as such.

[TonyG_cyprus]

You'd prefer endless "what is your favourite <noun>" discussions to intelligent discourse?

No, I would not prefer that, and political argument is very rarely 'inteligent discourse' it is more often exremely biased uninformed heresay.

[Ketsuekiame]

Let's not forget about her drive to meet the "Clean Air Act" closing most of the pits off in the 80's and effectively crippling the country's industrial and manufacturing sector. The UK produced some of the best steel in the world and our mines employed a large proportion of the Northern workforce and now we import everything.
But they were all closed off under the pretense of not being profitable. A statistical trick as mines are generally not profitable when they open but become so after several years. I guess all those people being on benefits and breeding a population of benefit scroungers seems really cheap now...

[TonyG_cyprus]

But they were all closed off under the pretense of not being profitable. A statistical trick as mines are generally not profitable when they open but become so after several years.

And of course, it's not possible that it was the ever increasing wage demands of the miners 'leaders' that first led to them being unprofitable, is it? And of course your boss's wage bill is more than the sum of the firm's income, is it?
Like I said, uninformed hearsay.

[Agilemind]

And of course, it's not possible that it was the ever increasing wage demands of the miners 'leaders' that first led to them being unprofitable, is it? And of course your boss's wage bill is more than the sum of the firm's income, is it?

But is that an argument to shut them down or reform them? And another issue with modern politics: How do you balance that against cutting school lunch programs and arguing against a world without nukes?

Did Thatcher address some problems that needed to be addressed? yes, many politicians do.
Did she make do some bad thing as well? yes, most politicians do.
Did she create more/bigger problems than the ones she addressed? perhaps, I didn't know the world pre-Thatcher and no-one can know what the world would have been like without her so this is unanswerable (which is exactly why people are so polarized about it).

[TonyG_cyprus]

As I said, nearly all political arguments/discussions are biased one way or the other. If the whole of the UK were divided 50/50 Labour/ Conservative, half the country would love, half would hate and only a tiny proportion of either would be swayed by the others argument. And in my experience the political aliegence is generaly, although not always, familial.

[Reverend Jim]

"Poor dear, there's nothing between his ears." -- British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, speaking to one of her officials about Reagan, cited by Peter Jenkins, Mrs. Thatcher's Revolution

I admire the way she couldn't be "corrupted" from her path

That could just be another way of saying "blinded by ideology". Like tax cuts for the rich as a cure-all or war in Iraq and the hell with the facts.

political argument is very rarely 'inteligent discourse' it is more often exremely biased uninformed heresay.

Unfortunately that is often the case. But that is no reason not to make the attempt or nothing useful would ever be discussed.

Did Thatcher address some problems that needed to be addressed? yes, many politicians do.

But did she address these problems appropriately? That will be the subject of endless debate.

[GrimJack]

no offence, but look around. in the UK there's this one workless guy, has 17 kids with about as many (15) different women, and he lives on child support. now, lately, the guy has murdered (or attempted) to murder some other guy while he was drunk.

No offense but look around Utah near the borders - the guys marry then divorce 14 year old women who each have 3-10 kids, and the guys do not have to work because their harem of 5 wives with 40 kids on welfare keeps them in a good cash flow (hint: yes I am talking about Mormon bigamy).

[Reverend Jim]

Reagan used to go on about a woman in the south side of Chicago who was abusing the system. According to Reagan, "She has eighty names, thirty addresses, twelve Social Security cards and is collecting veteran's benefits on four non-existing deceased husbands. And she is collecting Social Security on her cards. She's got Medicaid, getting food stamps, and she is collecting welfare under each of her names. Her tax-free cash income is over $150,000." That was his justification for gutting the welfare system.

Of course, nobody could actually verify her existence. Not even Reagan. Like most stories of this type (like the Republicans with their horror stories of massive voter fraud), they do not stand up to scrutiny and are only repeated to justify ideologically driven policies. So when you talk about this one workless guy, has 17 kids with about as many (15) different women you should be ready to cite some credible sources.

[happygeek]

political aliegence is generaly, although not always, familial

Certainly not my experience, either personally or amongst my circle of friends. Indeed, I would tend to suggest the exact opposite with kids often rebelling against parental political viewpoints. My parents were to the right of Conservative, I ended up a member of the Socialist Workers Party in my youth before adopting an anarchist idealogy as I matured, for example.

I do however agree that political argument is usually biased, that's the nature of the beast.

[Ketsuekiame]

@Reverend Jim: I think they were referring to this story?

[Reverend Jim]

Thank you for the link. He is a thoroughly disgusting waste or protoplasm. And a system that continues to allow him (and others like him) to avoid responsibility is a system that needs to be changed.

political aliegence is generaly, although not always, familial

I would have chosen the word tribal as opposed to familial. Most people feel the need to belong to a group and will defend their allegiance to that group even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are wrong. Clearly this allegiance can often be stronger than family ties.

[Xantipius]

I was born and live on in a very enigmatical country - Belarus.
Nobody here speak Belarusian language (which is much more ancient than Russian, e.g.),
nobody here is interested in any social or political activities, absolutely (incl. me).
I don't mind and I don't know what is the name of our prime-minister.
A different case with Russia and Ukraine.

[TonyG_cyprus]

nobody here is interested in any social or political activities, absolutely (incl. me).
I don't mind and I don't know what is the name of our prime-minister

This is scary, Xantipius, this way the people become downtroden and depressed.Regardless of whether you are passionate or not, you should have a voice, and opinions. If everybody has this attitude bad people end up running the country, as several times through history, your own (as part of USSR) included.

[stultuske]

hmmm ... just read the cost of Thatcher's funeral might build up to an amount of (estimated) over 9 million euro. influential politician or not, what the hell? do they really have nothing better to spend their funds on?

[<M/>]

hmmm ... just read the cost of Thatcher's funeral might build up to an amount of (estimated) over 9 million euro. influential politician or not, what the hell? do they really have nothing better to spend their funds on?

Of course.... spend 9 million euro on a funeral but not feed a bunch of families with that much money... she isn't even that important (okay she is, but she is a more of a problem creator than solver)!

If i were the people, i would just throw her in a ditch in a wooden box and bury it in the earth and then put a rock with her name on it to show where she has been buried.